The US secret war

[ViolentPanda]

rogue yam, thanks for your answers.

You seem to jump back and forth between "we are the good guys" and "there's nothing wrong with doing whatever we want".

Why are you surprised (unless, of course, you're posting tongue-in-cheek) at this person's apparent hypocrisy?
He's just using the same tactic every other uncritical two-bit cheerleader for "Team America" does, agreeing with the stuff he thinks will garner him a reputation for humanity, and then letting slip his true motivations.

For instance:
On the one hand you agree that countries should abide by the expressed will of the UN security council, on the other hand you say you were right to invade Iraq - despite the fact that you tried and failed to get an explicit go-ahead from the UN.

Classic "do as I say, not as I do", in other words, everyone else must abide by UN rules, but we, and we alone, reserve to ourselves the right to act unilaterally.

Now don't get me wrong, Blair is just as bad, so this is not America-bashing as you call it.

As I said, we may be guilty of American-bashing, but very few of us are guilty of America-bashing. There's a big difference, although people the likes of Rogue Yam don't like the distinction being made as it prevents them using the "they hate our freedoms" defence.

 

[rogue yam]

On the one hand you agree that countries should abide by the expressed will of the UN security council, on the other hand you say you were right to invade Iraq - despite the fact that you tried and failed to get an explicit go-ahead from the UN.

Iraq was in violation of numerous UNSC resolutions, including Resolution 1441 of November 2002 that gave them one last chance to comply or else face "serious consequences." Iraq did not abide by Resolution 1441 and thus experienced those consequences. The U.S. does not violate binding UNSC resolutions, but neither do we give the UNSC, or anyone else, a veto over our military. Some argue that such a veto should be explicitly agreed to by the U.S. and all others, but we refuse to go along with this. Others argue that military action is already "forbidden" under "international law" absent UNSC authorization, but this is abject twaddle. The U.N. is a profoundly corrupt institution, and many (most?) of its member states are themselves disgraces to humankind. The U.N. is not, and shall never be, the final arbiter of U.S. policy and action.

 

[TAE]

You can try to justify it any way you like, the fact remains that the US reserves the right to ignore any part of any treaty according to its own national interests, and as such your assertion regarding international law that "we are complying with all treaties" is simply not true.

The U.S. does not violate binding UNSC resolutions

Let's wait and see what happens if anyone ever manages to pass one against you.

 

[davekriss]

...and some Saudi guy (Hamdi?) who happened to be born here. He was stripped of his citizenship and handed over to the Saudis.)

Mind telling us where the executive branch gets its power and authority to "strip" someone of his or her citizenship and hand them over to a foriegn country? No such authority exists. (Though it was part of USA Patriot Act II, which was leaked to great outrage and thus not advanced -- did the Republithugs slip some of it through during some midnight closeted session?)

 

[davekriss]

Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else knows where Iraq will be politically in ten years. The same hold true for Iran as well. The United States is making a courageous, risky, and costly attempt to help tens of millions of souls seize and secure their own liberty. Who else is doing one tenth so much?

In the spirit of "Cease to do evil; try to do good" I vote that we cease trying to "save" people outside our borders and cease nation-building in our own image. It's just this century's self-serving version of the "white man's burden". Instead, let's focus our attention on saving the poor of New Orleans, or providing healthcare to the 48,000,000 American citizens without health insurance, or restoring fiscal sanity to public ledgers.

So, you really trully believe we invaded Iraq -- "couragesous", "risky", and as "costly" as it was -- to secure "liberty" for 25 million citizens of a nation which posed no risk to ourselves?



Tool!

 

[laptop]

The U.S. does not violate binding UNSC resolutions,

'Course it fucking doesn't.

It's got a fucking veto.

V e t o. Short enough a word for you?

And it's used it more than any of the other SC members.

 

[rogue yam]

You can try to justify it any way you like, the fact remains that the US reserves the right to ignore any part of any treaty according to its own national interests, and as such your assertion regarding international law that "we are complying with all treaties" is simply not true.

Bosh. We reserve no such right. We sign treaties with the full stated intention of complying with them. You know this as does everyone else on this board. To imply otherwise is a waste of everyone's time. Now, as a matter of fact, I also believe that we do in practice actually comply with those treaties. You, apparently, do not, though you have given no examples. But this "reserve the right" claim is patently false. You know it, I know it, and everyone else on this thread knows it. Grow up.

Let's wait and see what happens if anyone ever manages to pass one against you.

Not likely.

 

[rogue yam]

Mind telling us where the executive branch gets its power and authority to "strip" someone of his or her citizenship and hand them over to a foriegn country? No such authority exists.

Bollocks. It was a 3-way negotiated deal between the White House, the Saudis, and the terrorist.

 

[TAE]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/11/sprj.irq.un/

 

[fela fan]

Pakistan is a cesspool of hatred and tyranny with whom we are trying to cooperate. What can you do? If we simultaneously tried to resolve all of these situations, we would accomplish nothing, so we choose some order in which to address them. It's simple realism.

Game of chess innit. With any luck for yourself you'll wake up one day and find a life. Coz at the minute you are under the cosh of some serious self-delusion, along with self-grandeur and puffed-up self-importance.

You demonstrate very well downside of america. It's not a pretty sight at all. 'Cesspool of hatred and tyranny'... really, what the fuck are you on? And your 'realism' is that you are the walking dead.

 

[rogue yam]

'Cesspool of hatred and tyranny'... really, what the fuck are you on?

Have you been to Pakistan? To the Northwest Frontier Provinces? I have.

 

[laptop]

Have you been to Pakistan? To the Northwest Frontier Provinces? I have.

If I were a woman I'd probably agree to the "tyranny". But I doubt that's what your phrase was about.

But you misunderstand. When people there - men and women - hate you, it's personal.

 

[fela fan]

Have you been to Pakistan? To the Northwest Frontier Provinces? I have.

It was your colourful, yet distasteful, language i was pulling you up on. To describe people with such forcefully negative words tells this forum much more about you than those you disdain.

It's irrelevant where i've been or not. What's relevant is how you reduce other people into enemies through your own misperceptions and brainwashing.

Your brain really could do with a wash mate. It might then be able to ask itself questions like why do some people, it is safe to say, hate america, and maybe what aspects of america or american people do they hate?

I again ask: what the fuck are you on?

 

[fela fan]

But you misunderstand. When people there - men and women - hate you, it's personal.

That's a good point.

 

[davekriss]

Mind telling us where the executive branch gets its power and authority to "strip" someone of his or her citizenship and hand them over to a foriegn country? No such authority exists.

Bollocks. It was a 3-way negotiated deal between the White House, the Saudis, and the terrorist.

You didn't answer the question, by what constitutional or statutory authority did the executive branch get its prower to strip an American of his citizenship and dump him in another country? There is no such power. Hitler had such power, but not a President of the United States or his faithful flock of flying monkeys. There is no such authority. None whatsoever. So chaulk this too as a Constitution denigrating act included in the soon to be ready articles of impeachment.

The fact that the U.S. has NOT stripped Hamadhi of his citizenship and renditioned him to Saudi Arabia -- what you say didn't happen, steps were taken just this week to get him his fair day in court -- brings into question every fairy tale you share here. Is it real? Or is it bullox? We decide.

 

[davekriss]

Bollocks. It was a 3-way negotiated deal between the White House, the Saudis, and the terrorist.

Are you saying that, in order to avoid Gitmo Limbo the USG was successful in getting Hamdhi to "volunterilly" renounce his U.S. citizenship? That is a different story. Do you have a link? I'd like to learn more about this.

 

[fela fan]

The fact that the U.S. has NOT stripped Hamadhi of his citizenship and renditioned him to Saudi Arabia -- what you say didn't happen, steps were taken just this week to get him his fair day in court -- brings into question every fairy tale you share here. Is it real? Or is it bullox? We decide.

I decided a while back on this thread dave! It's the psychological problem of self-delusion, based on overdoses of indoctrination and propaganda, that is his problem.

As i suggested earlier too, to actually one day face up to the lie one has led, means a severe and sudden changing of one's reality. Young enough, no problems maybe, but once a person has a few years on them, it must get harder to face up to. Y'know, the time you waste on talking about death and enemies, and missing out on life.

I think the forum is better off without this person, but it's open to all, so accept. But he's in the same league as another american poster who condones torture by his goverment.

 

[rogue yam]

The fact that the U.S. has NOT stripped Hamadhi of his citizenship and renditioned him to Saudi Arabia -- what you say didn't happen, steps were taken just this week to get him his fair day in court -- brings into question every fairy tale you share here. Is it real? Or is it bullox? We decide.

Here's a suggestion, DK: learn to read, spell, and Google. Fuckwit!



Stripped of US Nationality, Yasser Hamdi Is Home
Essam Al-Ghalib, Arab News

JEDDAH, 12October 2004 — Yasser Esam Hamdi, has been released from US custody and has returned to Saudi Arabia to be reunited with his family. His arrival in Riyadh marks the end of a three-year ordeal that has captured international headlines and strained US-Saudi relations. “He came home. He has just arrived and we are happy to see him,” said his father, Esam Hamdi, yesterday.

 

[TAE]

wikipedia would seem to agree with you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaser_Esam_Hamdi

Although I would question the phrase 'voluntarily' here.

In June 2004, the United States Supreme Court rejected the U.S. government's attempts to detain Hamdi indefinitely without trial, reasserting principles of individual liberty threatened by policies enacted in the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks.

On September 23, 2004, the United States Justice Department agreed to release Hamdi to Saudi Arabia on the condition that he gives up his U.S. citizenship. The deal also bars Hamdi from visiting Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, Pakistan, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza. Hamdi must notify Saudi officials if he ever plans to leave the kingdom.

In that circumstance, I think most people would just want to get away. And if he'd rather be in Saudi Arabia than in the US, that also says something.

You also have to ask yourself why it was ok to let him go at all if he was sooo dangerous:
http://www.slate.com/id/2107114/

EDIT:
One more little detail:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sleeper/tools/mobbshamdi.html
Yaser Esam Hamdi was not captured fighting US troops, the northern alliance captured him and later handed him over to the US military.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Here's a suggestion, DK: learn to read, spell, and Google. Fuckwit!

All this from a person who mis-spelt "intelligence".

Mmmm, what was that ridiculous expression you vomited forth yesterday in reaction to somebody swearing?

Ah yes, "pottymouth".

Seems you're just as guilty.

Can we expect more expletives from you as your rantings are progressively exposed as the ideologically partisan and racist dreck that they are?

 

[Streathamite]

No. I first heard of this site a day or two ago, on Craig's List - S.F. Heard it was rife with fanatical America-bashing. True that!

you mean - "anyone who offers any sort of criticism of the USA, based on the USA's own actions, is a fanatical America-basher, they all hate us ecause they're jealous!!!"

 

[rogue yam]

Can we expect more expletives from you as your rantings are progressively exposed as the ideologically partisan and racist dreck that they are?

DK got pwned. You know it, I know it, he knows it. Cry elsewhere.

 

[snadge]

DK got pwned. You know it, I know it, he knows it. Cry elsewhere.

that reads as gibberish to me, he's turning into leadhead.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I think he's funny. Can we keep him?

 

[Streathamite]

DK got pwned. You know it, I know it, he knows it. Cry elsewhere.

err...can we have this in english please?

 

[TAE]

that reads as gibberish to me, he's turning into leadhead.

He's celebrating the fact that he got a small detail about Yaser Esam Hamdi right, while ignoring all the other stuff I posted.

 

[ViolentPanda]

DK got pwned. You know it, I know it, he knows it. Cry elsewhere.

Cry?

Au contraire. I'm laughing (AT YOU rather than with you), not crying.

The fact that you believe that you have superior debating skills and a decent argument are what provoke the fierce gusts of laughter from me.

You couldn't own (or "pwn" as you so lamely put it) a pisspot, let alone DaveKriss.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think he's funny. Can we keep him?

Only if you're willing to potty-train him, Bernie.

His current incontinent ejection of smelly nuggets of stupidity from his arse isn't something I'd wish to see continue for too long. The carpets might stain.

 

[Streathamite]

Here's a suggestion, DK: learn to read, spell, and Google. Fuckwit!



Stripped of US Nationality, Yasser Hamdi Is Home
Essam Al-Ghalib, Arab News

JEDDAH, 12October 2004 — Yasser Esam Hamdi, has been released from US custody and has returned to Saudi Arabia to be reunited with his family. His arrival in Riyadh marks the end of a three-year ordeal that has captured international headlines and strained US-Saudi relations. “He came home. He has just arrived and we are happy to see him,” said his father, Esam Hamdi, yesterday.

here's a suggestion RY. learn how to put up a link properly.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Yeah but he's the first person we've found in ages who is actually dumb enough to argue that the US is winning in Iraq. That counts for something.

OK he isn't very good at it, and relies almost entirely on delusion and bluster, but that's still the best action we've had for ages.

Even most of the neo-cons are admitting they're completely fucked and looking for the exit while trying not to wee their pants these days. He's fun.