TAE said:
nino_savatte said:You've been on Urban before - haven't you, rogue yam?
Kaka Tim said:Fuck me - where do you start? The US has been 'co-operating with tyrants' for 50 years.
Kaka Tim said:And - for your information - the US has killed many thousands more civilians since sept 11 than the jihadis (tens of thousands killed by the US in iraq alone - and thats by the most conservative estimates). If you want a longer historical pespective we're probably talking millions.
sleaterkinney said:John Paul II??
The eastern block fell from the inside, but I guess if you don't know your history....
Bernie Gunther said:I think your approach to dismissing the views of a professor of constitutional law at one of your most prestigious universities, on a matter of his expertise, is kind of interesting.
Would you dismiss the views of a professor of theoretical physics on a matter of quantum electrodynamics say, by calling him an 'infantile leftist'?
& in english?rogue yam said:If you don't understand the leftist cast of the American academy, then there is little I can do to enlighten you on this subject. If you don't understand the difference in the inherent objectivity of physics as compared to public policy, then there is little that anyone can do to enlighten you on any subject.
rogue yam said:No. I first heard of this site a day or two ago, on Craig's List - S.F. Heard it was rife with fanatical America-bashing. True that!
rogue yam said:Arrogance combined with ignorance shrinks your world to nothing.
Yes he has, but not for the good of humanity, but the wellbeing of the US.rogue yam said:GWB has explicitly and repeatedly pointed to this in his speaches, and proposed a new way forward.
Do you think all countries should invade each other and impose their idea of the ideal society on each other?rogue yam said:We have started in Afghanistan and Iraq. What have other major countries done?
Is this the "leftist cast" as promulgated by conspiranoid rightists everywhere, or do you mean the "we're slightly less right than those guys over there" cast that actually exists in the real world?rogue yam said:If you don't understand the leftist cast of the American academy, then there is little I can do to enlighten you on this subject.
Mr Gunther mentioned a professor of theoretical physics. Are you claiming that theoretical physics is an inherently objective discipline?If you don't understand the difference in the inherent objectivity of physics as compared to public policy, then there is little that anyone can do to enlighten you on any subject.
TAE said:Not at all. It is your government's mixing of these terms which is objectionable.
If they are terrorists, put them on trial.
If they are POWs, treat them as such.
Ah, but this wasn't some wooly issue of public policy was it? It was a professor of law, talking about what is and is not legal. I found your approach to dealing with his statements kind of interesting. You didn't attempt to challenge any legal facts or details. Instead you applied some perjoratives and dismissed the whole question.rogue yam said:If you don't understand the leftist cast of the American academy, then there is little I can do to enlighten you on this subject. If you don't understand the difference in the inherent objectivity of physics as compared to public policy, then there is little that anyone can do to enlighten you on any subject.
Which I take to mean, that you think obeying the law has nothing much to do with 'running the government' a view that your president rather too evidently shares.rogue yam said:The day that Yale professors stop slagging the U.S. from a leftist viewpoint will be the day that America has been taken over by a fascist, right-wing dictatorship. Contrary to the views of infantile leftists everywhere, such a day will never come. It is not the job of sensible citizens to try to change the minds of persons chosen for academic positions and offered advancement in large part because of their leftist views. Here in America, we've decided to let the leftists run the universities, and have the conservatives running the government.
rogue yam said:We are distinguishing between the terms. Others are mixing the terms. The terrorists are not POWs. (There have been some POWs in both Afghanistan and Iraq, and generally they have been treated according to the various treaties that we have signed.) It all boils down to your demand to put terrorists on trial. We have chosen not to, and repeatedly explained why not. Some leftists don't like this (big suprise...not!) and so they shriek incoherently about "international law" (we are complying with all treaties) and "world opinion" (which is just too rich for many reasons, some of which I've given above). But it really does boil down to that one point. You want American-style criminal justice procedures to be applied to terrorists whatever they've done, wherever they're captured, and wherever they're held. You will not get such from the U.S. so long as GWB is President.
Not good enough. If another nation was holding american citizens like that you'd be screaming blue murder.rogue yam said:We have chosen not to, and repeatedly explained why not.
TAE said:Yes he has, but not for the good of humanity, but the wellbeing of the US.
TAE said:And yet even now, when it suits him, he is perfectly willing to be friends with military dictatorships.
TAE said:Do you think all countries should invade each other and impose their idea of the ideal society on each other?
TAE said:Or do you think that all countries should abide by the expressed will of the united nations security council?
TAE said:Not good enough. If another nation was holding american citizens like that you'd be screaming blue murder.
TAE said:"We don't want to" is not good enough when you are talking about citizens of other countries.
Bernie Gunther said:It's been a long time since we've had anyone here even try to argue that Iraq could be described as a success, rather than one of the most startling and bloody-minded examples of shocking military incompetence since Spion Kop.
Bernie Gunther said:So a pro-Iranian Islamic Republic of Iraq is a big success for US interests?
rogue yam said:(VERY poor intellectual skills by many on this site, unfortunately.) GWB has explicitly and repeatedly pointed to this in his speaches, and proposed a new way forward.
You've turned the Sunni parts of Iraq into Disneyland for wanna-be-jihadis, you've turned the Shiia bits over to Iranian controlled militias. You're sitting there like a bunch of big, fat, blind, deaf and dumb targets while various groups of people who think you're the "Great Satan" are laughing at your predicament and either taking turns to blow you and your hapless stooges up, or simply keeping their powder dry while you're still being useful to them.rogue yam said:Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else knows where Iraq will be politically in ten years. The same hold true for Iran as well. The United States is making a courageous, risky, and costly attempt to help tens of millions of souls seize and secure their own liberty. Who else is doing one tenth so much?
rogue yam said:The people of the United States are making a courageous, risky, and costly attempt to help senior members of the bush administration, oil executives and defensive contractors seize and secure their own financial future. QUOTE]
would be more accurate.
Please can the moral grandstanding. Its making me want to vomit. In fact if you feel so great about it - why dont you get out to Iraqiland yourself and go maim a few kids for dubya?
Kaka Tim said:Nobody outside Italy believed him then and nobody out side the US believes Bush is driven by concern for the people of Iraq either. Least of all the Iraqis.
Bernie Gunther said:You're sitting there like a bunch of big, fat, blind, deaf and dumb targets...
Well, I certainly wouldn't claim that the western political sphere is irrelevant, but you should have thought about that before alienating most of your allies shouldn't you?rogue yam said:Most of the people in Iraq who hold this opinion of the United States military, and who have acted on it, are already dead. The truly dangerous ones over there realize you are talking bollocks and are carefully trying to stage photogenic pinpricks while hoping that you will use these militarily useless acts to propagandize for terrorist victory on the real battlefield: the Western political sphere.
source“We were hit 3000 times and in only fifteen of those attacks did we have anyone to shoot back at,”