The US secret war
- Thread starter Mickey2star
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For me one of the most touching photos of the New Orleans floods was a shot from the air of some stranded people - who were waving American flags - hoping to be rescued.
Maybe there weren't any other flags around... I found it quite sad. It was although they were saying "Rescue us, we're American, that makes us special, that makes us important". Actually it meant fuck all. The poor were left behind. Being American meant absolutely nothing.
Mears, you've been conned mate. Your government has ransacked the treasury, sold your children into debt slavery to the Chinese and repeatedly turned America into an international embarrassment. This latest thing over torture will only blow over when the next massive fuck up comes to light. It's just one thing after another.
If you're as patriotic as you say you are, you really need to do something about the way your country is being ruined. Arguing with a load of anarchists from across the Atlantic as to whether or not it's actually happening is not only delusional but also arguably a dereliction of responsibility.
I mean don't get me wrong - I've been to America seven times - I happen to really like it. I like the music, the food, the scenery, the mythology and the people - but things are fucked at the moment, and they're not going to get better until this government is out of office and prosecutions for what's been going on these last five years get underway.
Maybe there weren't any other flags around... I found it quite sad. It was although they were saying "Rescue us, we're American, that makes us special, that makes us important". Actually it meant fuck all. The poor were left behind. Being American meant absolutely nothing.
Mears, you've been conned mate. Your government has ransacked the treasury, sold your children into debt slavery to the Chinese and repeatedly turned America into an international embarrassment. This latest thing over torture will only blow over when the next massive fuck up comes to light. It's just one thing after another.
If you're as patriotic as you say you are, you really need to do something about the way your country is being ruined. Arguing with a load of anarchists from across the Atlantic as to whether or not it's actually happening is not only delusional but also arguably a dereliction of responsibility.
I mean don't get me wrong - I've been to America seven times - I happen to really like it. I like the music, the food, the scenery, the mythology and the people - but things are fucked at the moment, and they're not going to get better until this government is out of office and prosecutions for what's been going on these last five years get underway.
nick1181 said:
Category 5 storms are easy to deal with, really any natural disaster. How is Pakistan responding to their terrible earthquake, are people freezing to death? What about South East Asia's response to last years tsunami. Were the early warning systems sufficient? I'm sure the folks in Europe know plenty about category 5 storms, deal with them all the time. Hurricane Katrina was a moment for Europeans who on average have a lower standard of living than Americans to just criticize. Our standard of living is lower but look at their response to Katrina. The US army projets its power around the world but look at Katrina. No one listens or cares what the EU has to say about the Middle East, but look at Katrina .Do we look and other governments response to natural disasters? No way, only America and only when it highlights their faults.
Nothing more than sour grapes mate.
George Bush has dealt with the bursting of the stock market bubble and a severe recession that followed. The US economy is back on track with solid growth and unemployment numbers most European countries can only dream of.
And than the attack by Islamic radicals (and really what else can they do, the CIA supported them 20 years before) on 9-11. Major event that has not been repeated in the US. If you blame George Bush for everyting you must give him some credit for this. Because if there is another terrorist attack on his watch it will of course be his fault in the mind of the European left.
Kind of like the enslavement of America by Japan in the 1980's don't you know. Sure we could turn isolationist and protectionist. Keep all Chinese products out of our country. I guess thats what you think America should do. But that really doesn't benefit anyone in my book.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
mears said:
How pathetic.
A liar with delusions.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Yossarian said:
Leaving both hands free so he could deploy the magnifying glass and tweezers on his atrophied genitals.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Not really, he's just run the books at a deficit that will come back to haunt the US, it will have to be payed off some day.mears said:
Both of which happened with no warning, the US had plenty of time to evacuate the city but it just left the poor people to fend for themselves, because that's how it works over there.
Kaka Tim said:
I can't say I support any of those actions, and I know it has been done in the US military and intelligence circles and its wrong. I also support Congress looking into them, or the EU for that matter. Also at some point we shall see the US had cooperation with the intelligence agencies in Europe, so that will be interesting.
I don't have a problem with working with other governments to take known terrorists of the street and move them for a couple of days to a base for interrogation, secret interrogation, to confuse associates of their approximate whereabouts. But if they can't be charged in a court of law they must set free. It can only last of a limited time (lets say two or three days) The suspect can't be threatened or degraded. Maybe he chooses to say nothing. I would not have problem keeping him up to pry out information. If thats mental torture than I am sorry.
You can't close your eyes and hope Islamic terrorism just evaporates. But again who knows, if democracy is brought to Iraq and it spreads around the area maybe it will evaporate some day. A lone superpower with a plan is better than a superpower with no plan.
someoneelse
Well-Known Member
mears said:
like the hundreds in Guantanamo Bay?
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Knight Professor of Constitutional Law at Yale Jack Balkin, is not impressed.
http://balkin.blogspot.com/
Here's his precise, analytical demolition of the "ticking bomb" argument.
http://balkin.blogspot.com/
Here's his precise, analytical demolition of the "ticking bomb" argument.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Condoning any kind of torture can only be done by those who have forfeited the humanity they were born with. Somewhere along the way they forgot what it means to live as a human and to laugh and love as a human and to be a human.
They don't realise they are worse off than the ones they choose to torture/have tortured.
Torture, rape, and capital punishment are the preserve of the most barbaric of humans. All are premeditated violence against fellow human beings. What is so insidious when it comes to the american variety is that they do theirs in the pretence that they are bringing freedom and democracy to other people.
This could be recorded as the greatest act of self-delusion on a mass scale ever. Eyes and ears have to be screwed so shut it's a surprise they can ever see or hear again.
Perhaps they can't.
They don't realise they are worse off than the ones they choose to torture/have tortured.
Torture, rape, and capital punishment are the preserve of the most barbaric of humans. All are premeditated violence against fellow human beings. What is so insidious when it comes to the american variety is that they do theirs in the pretence that they are bringing freedom and democracy to other people.
This could be recorded as the greatest act of self-delusion on a mass scale ever. Eyes and ears have to be screwed so shut it's a surprise they can ever see or hear again.
Perhaps they can't.
If they are prisoners of war and the war is over, which is the case (the Taliban is out of power and the American puppet Karzai regime is in office), then why are they still prisoners? Shouldn't they have been released? Isn't it a violation of articles of the Geneva Convention to still hold them? Isn't it a violation of the GC to hold them in stress positions, urinate on them or their religious articles, to attempt to solicit information?mears said:
The GWB Regime long ago argued that they are NOT prisoners of war, mears, and thus not protected by the Geneva Convention; instead, they are something new, invented by the Regime, called "enemy combatants". Did you forget that?
davekriss said:
Its not something where a government presents articles of surrender. The war against Islamic terrorism is over when Islamic terrorists stop attacking. Then the "enemy combatants" should be released. If some were released and they perpetrated acts of terrorism ,the President would never be forgiven by the American people.
Well, should we also lock up every American that has read the Turner Diaries then? Who knows when the next Timothy McVeigh will saunter along? It's WAR you say against them evil terrorist!! Should we also abandon to Gitmo everyone who is anti-choice? Who knows when the next Eric Rudolph's gonna' toss a bomb into an abortion clinic? I mean, lock 'em up, waterboard them all -- out of the tens of thousands you, mears, would inter, surely one or two really means to do us harm!! Better to be safe than sorry, right? No habeas corpus needed. No rule of law. Morality is a sign of weakness and sentimentality. As long as the injured party is the other guy, hey?mears said:
Am I closer to understanding your ethics?
someoneelse
Well-Known Member
removed - going off topic
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
mears said:Following me around again. Its sad because I think you are actually an older person and not some 18 year old anarchist which might explain your behavior.
I keep repeating it because you were unable to come up with a way to measure human prosperity, standard of living, even though you criticized my meathods. It speaks volumes, always easier to bitch than come up with something concrete.
Here come the fancy words!
You really are in a wordl of your own because, as with the previous reply, you don't deal with the point raised.
Your insults stink, like your politics.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
mears said:
You are at "war"? Have you ever once stopped to think about that statement? You aren't "at war"; the war was an illusion created by Bush/Rove to keep the former in office.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
snadge said:
Hey, at the end of the day (and after condoning torture while trying, with weasel words, to appear not to condemn torture, trade is indeed what it boils down to for mears, the possibility of seeing his stocks rise, and fuck anything else.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
nino_savatte said:
Please don't waste your energy, mate.
He's locked himself into his delusion, and he isn't going to shift from it.
Anyway, anyone with any sense and with any history of reading mears' posts knows all about his mendacity, so his proclaiming one thing pretty much guarantees people will know the opposite is true.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
ViolentPanda said:Please don't waste your energy, mate.
He's locked himself into his delusion, and he isn't going to shift from it.
Anyway, anyone with any sense and with any history of reading mears' posts knows all about his mendacity, so his proclaiming one thing pretty much guarantees people will know the opposite is true.
He loves to repeat that tired wee mantra of "We are at war". It's funny but I never heard this sort of language during the Vietnam War and thousands were being conscripted at the time, but I do not recall Johnson or Nixon using this line as a means of stifling debate...they used COINTELPRO instead.
Many were not. One of the british guys who ended up in guantanamo was arrested in islamabad. Others were handed over to US troops by the northern alliance (who until the US got involved didn't wear uniforms either).mears said:
Very few of the captives in guantanamo were caught red-handed by the US military.
And those which did, have not become the property of the united states and should not be held like slaves with no prospect of release.
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