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The stupidity of the anti-vaxx nutcases

I don't think that conspiracy theorists (nor Tory voters for that matter) are mentally ill, and I try to avoid language that implies they are. The ideas are batshit, but they serve a rational purpose even if the person cleaving to them doesn't realise it. The ironic thing is that the conspiracy shit relating to vaccines is itself a conspiracy, largely revolving around selling overpriced shit.
 
I don't think that conspiracy theorists (nor Tory voters for that matter) are mentally ill, and I try to avoid language that implies they are. The ideas are batshit, but they serve a rational purpose even if the person cleaving to them doesn't realise it. The ironic thing is that the conspiracy shit relating to vaccines is itself a conspiracy, largely revolving around selling overpriced shit.

Don't care if they are ill or not. Plenty of us have mh issues and don't all resort to batshit theories and dettach ourselves from reality.
 

Public health experts told USA TODAY that anger is understandable, widespread and unproductive. They worry that shaming and blaming the unvaccinated could backfire – entrenching their decision rather than persuading them to get the shots.

The only way to end the death and suffering of COVID-19 is to get millions of Americans vaccinated. Mandates may help, but insults, anger and dismissiveness are widely considered a terrible way to convince people to get vaccinated.

"If you’re going to call me an idiot … that isn’t encouragement,” Stephanie McClure, an assistant professor of biocultural medical anthropology at the University of Alabama, told USA TODAY. “You usually don’t get anywhere by attacking people.”
 
No, I didn't suggest that, but I do think the arguments he's said as justification are bollocks. No idea if he tried to persuade her, or just was like whatever. I'd be hard pressed not to lose respect for someone that came out with that level of nonsense tbh, but obviously (and luckily) we all have different ideas of what's acceptable or not in a relationship
I didn't get married to have someone who agrees with me and my respect for my wife is built on alot more than her albeit misguided opinion on a vaccine.
 
Based on my exposure to a wide spectrum of vaccine hesitancy and conspiraloonery, the messaging was confused.
The vaccine was oversold - perhaps because the thought was that being realistic about its limitations would discourage acceptance.
Not wearing a mask was sold as a key "reward".
"variants" - though troublesome - have also been politicised.

It's clear now that not only has the key problem with covid always been asymptomatic transmission, but during the time it takes for the vaccinated immune system to catch up and get to work, there is just as much infection, replication and shedding - so masks and social distancing and ventilation are just as important.

I myself mixed with my also-vaccinated family members back in June.
I would be very hesitant now and I worry about my 85 year old mother being repeatedly visited by younger generations.
 
Based on my exposure to a wide spectrum of vaccine hesitancy and conspiraloonery, the messaging was confused.
The vaccine was oversold - perhaps because the thought was that being realistic about its limitations would discourage acceptance.
Not wearing a mask was sold as a key "reward".
"variants" - though troublesome - have also been politicised.

It's clear now that not only has the key problem with covid always been asymptomatic transmission, but during the time it takes for the vaccinated immune system to catch up and get to work, there is just as much infection, replication and shedding - so masks and social distancing and ventilation are just as important.

I myself mixed with my also-vaccinated family members back in June.
I would be very hesitant now and I worry about my 85 year old mother being repeatedly visited by younger generations.
I think this is right. It was also sold by a government for which free choice and individualism is a religion. This means it was sold based on personal benefits rather than collective need. And, of course, the problem with selling something in this way is that an individual may exercise their free choice to decide the personal benefits are not worth it. The younger the individual, the more their personal cost/benefit analysis skews in favour of costs.
 
How to debate with anti-vaxxers, and encourage them to reconsider their views. According to this article in today's Graun, anti-vaxxers won't listen to outsiders, so only someone on 'their side' arguing the contrary will have any effect.
(apologies if already posted upthread/elsewhere)
Interesting article, ta. That's certainly true of my experience of cults, and it's an interesting parallel to fraud victims.
 
The same can be said for people who do 70 in 30mph zones. Probably mentally ill in some respect, or just selfish to the extreme. But the visciral, valid real reaction to those who see it as it flies by in the street is anger. And fear. Many have not cared about the wellfare of their fellows from the start of the pandemic.
That's a good comparison I reckon, as people who refuse the vaccine aren't just endangering their own lives, but those around them also (both in the specific sense that being vaccinated reduces chances of infection and transmission, decreases viral load; and in the more abstract sense of - the more people who get vaccinated the closer we get to 'herd immunity').

That's why I have no patience for the argument I've heard on buses and tubes when someone not wearing a mask was challenged - 'my body, my choice'. Yes, but it's not only your body, it's other people's too. It's not like wearing a seatbelt or crash helmet.

That said, I take no pleasure in reading about anti-vaxxers dying from Covid, I think it's terribly sad that they've fallen for this bollocks and lost their lives as a result. Even more tragic when they insist on their death beds that they're glad they didn't have the vaccine :confused: :(
 
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Interesting article, ta. That's certainly true of my experience of cults, and it's an interesting parallel to fraud victims.
Yes, I thought the analysis of the psychology behind it was sound. Do cult 'deprogrammers' employ former cult members as the only ones who the subject will listen to?
 
Yes, I thought the analysis of the psychology behind it was sound. Do cult 'deprogrammers' employ former cult members as the only ones who the subject will listen to?
Yes, but for their knowledge of the cult rather than as the only ones they'll listen to. Once they've left they're even worse - apostates, backsliders, suppressive people - and cult member will have been specifically warned about them.

I think the main way to reach cult members is to point out conflicting statements from the cult leader or differences from what they've said and what they've done. Even that's hard though, with Hubbard for example you can point out his stated views on people getting divorced and the fact that he was married three times. Cult members will either not believe you, believe that you're just trying to test their faith, or rationalize why it was ok for him.
 
Yes, but for their knowledge of the cult rather than as the only ones they'll listen to. Once they've left they're even worse - apostates, backsliders, suppressive people - and cult member will have been specifically warned about them.

I think the main way to reach cult members is to point out conflicting statements from the cult leader or differences from what they've said and what they've done. Even that's hard though, with Hubbard for example you can point out his stated views on people getting divorced and the fact that he was married three times. Cult members will either not believe you, believe that you're just trying to test their faith, or rationalize why it was ok for him.
That's one of the difficulties with tackling anti-vaxxers, as there's no one leader of the 'movement'. Could try slagging off David Icke or Piers Corbyn and the person you're debating with might well say, oh I agree, Icke's a lunatic and Corbyn a hustler, but I don't get my info from them...
 
I'm sure it's important to find points of agreement somehow. I agree with them about the 'MSM' being not to be trusted for example - just differ on the details and where you should get information from. Agree with being careful about what we introduce into our bodies - there's normally a lot worse things people are putting in their bodies, and so on.
 
I posted earlier that I wonder if I might have got to this point in time without knowing the (very) basics of DNA and cell biology.
I learned it in 1987 thanks to an OU course - hopefully the internet would have seen me learning it eventually...

When I got too close to diabetes for comfort, I expanded my knowledge as a form of empowerment.
With Covid I have learned bits and bobs about viruses ...

There will be millions of people out there for whom this all might as well be Star Trek ...
 
I'm glad you feel in control of your mental health and don't feel all 'batshit'. Consider yourself lucky; not everyone has such self-control, education, or whatever it is that makes you better than the loons.

This self is often barely in control only because of sheer mental effort.

Consider this self just about hanging on and certainly don't need to be weighed down even further by conspiracy theories, antivaxxers, trolling misinformationists or other variants.
 
40-odd years ago, it would have very likely gone towards Interferon production. Back then, foreskins were the preferred source of the fibroblast cells needed to fuel the lines that produced it. So hopefully it did do some good. MS research and treatment is one area that particularly benefited from foreskin-derived Interferon. :)
I'm so glad that the world has better people than me in it. If I was left in charge I'd probably be making stuffed toys with them
 
These cunts are so skull fuckingly stupid that they’re currently protesting against the BBC news outside a building the BBC news is no longer based in.

Classic. :D

Violent clashes have erupted outside the BBC's old HQ in London after anti-vaccine passport demonstrators tried to storm the complex.

Commenters have labelled the demonstrators "thugs" and questioned whether those involved understand the BBC is a broadcaster and not the government. And that the Beeb is no longer based at White City.

Another added: "What a bunch of losers. The beeb aren't even based there anymore."

* The BBC do still has studios at White City.

 
If we were in a village being menaced by a tiger, I'd prefer nobody got killed by the tiger - but if it's going to drag anybody off, I'd prefer it to be the loudest voices who tried to persuade others that tigers aren't real and worked to sabotage the building of a wall to keep the tiger out.

And if its meal happened to be a preacher who had loudly insisted that tigers only eat the worst sinners, I think I'd find some humour in it.

If I were in a village being menaced by a tiger, I'd try to arranged for it to be got rid of, rather than imprison myself behind a wall or wait for it to drag someone off.
 
A spokesperson for the Met said: "We are aware of a group of demonstrators who, having set off from Shepherds Bush Green shortly after 13:00hrs, are now gathered outside a commercial premises in Wood Lane, White City.
There was a camp of them on Shepherds Bush Green some time ago, who stayed there for a week or two before being kicked out by the cops (in the normal charming friendly way the Met have) and the Green was fenced off for ages to stop them coming back. It's open again now and I wouldn't be surprised if it has developed some sort of significance and becomes a meeting point in future. Just what I need :rolleyes:
 
Pretty interesting, a new report today on vaccine hesitancy in UK.
The numbers are really quite low overall, important to remember, certainly compared with other countries.
Summary:

View attachment 282824



Those are certainly encouraging statistics. Confirms my suspicions that a lot of this stuff, at least in the UK for now, is a bunch of hot air from a minority of loudmouths.
 
Anti-lockdown/anti-vaccination protestors have attempted to storm Television Centre in an attack on the BBC.

The BBC moved out of Television Centre seven years ago. The studios targeted are leased by ITV to film, amongst other things, "Lorraine"









 
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