The stupidity of the anti-vaxx nutcases
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BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
It's fascinating and compelling on that level of psychology, isn't it? That's why I think I in some sense can't keep my eyes off of them.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
It's compelling.
As I've said on here before, my best mate of 35 years. Working class. Successful (millionaire actually). Never read a book in his life but was one of the most engaging, funny, open minded people I've known. Probably could be called a political as he never really got passionate about much. Perhaps loosley Centre right but 100% not racist or bigoted. His last message to another mate before said mate blocked him for good... "if you get that posion in your arm mate I will never speak to you or family again" my mate blocked him thereafter. Another mate of 30 years.
I mean that's hero to fucking zero stuff isn't it? A compelling fall. Horrible.
As I've said on here before, my best mate of 35 years. Working class. Successful (millionaire actually). Never read a book in his life but was one of the most engaging, funny, open minded people I've known. Probably could be called a political as he never really got passionate about much. Perhaps loosley Centre right but 100% not racist or bigoted. His last message to another mate before said mate blocked him for good... "if you get that posion in your arm mate I will never speak to you or family again" my mate blocked him thereafter. Another mate of 30 years.
I mean that's hero to fucking zero stuff isn't it? A compelling fall. Horrible.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
What's interesting is that it isn't really a phenomenon in and of itself. It incorporates all kinds of things, like confirmation bias (the evidence has to fit what is already believed), sunk cost fallacy (the more hours of YouTube video watched/Internet arguments had, the more embedded the belief), symbolic reduction fallacy (oversimplifying the facts/science, then extrapolating back from the simplified position), attribution errors (invoking Great Names, emphasising someone's qualifications/experience), priming (having already been persuaded by someone/something and just being more vulnerable to more of the same), loss aversion (they have too much invested in the belief to find it easy to let go of it), etc., etc.
And that's without stretching the point on any of the cited biases
ETA: I should have rolled Dunning Kruger in there, too, but we hear plenty about that already.
bimble
floofy
What happened to him do you know?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
This was the opening paragraph of an article about cognitive dissonance someone posted here.
Members of Heaven’s Gate, a religious cult, believed that as the Hale-Bopp comet passed by Earth in 1997, a spaceship would be traveling in its wake—ready to take true believers aboard. Several members of the group bought an expensive, high-powered telescope so that they might get a clearer view of the comet. They quickly brought it back and asked for a refund. When the manager asked why, they complained that the telescope was defective, that it didn’t show the spaceship following the comet.
Not that there was no spaceship, but that the telescope didn't work. Mental gymnastics.
Full article here The Role of Cognitive Dissonance in the Pandemic
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
Marriage fell apart. Just before covid. Shacked up with someone else a few weeks later. No idea if he still sees his kids even. Left or blocked from all of the WhatsApp groups. His Facebook is just a rolling mess of this stuff. It's heartbreaking. But I cut him off as he was getting more and abusive. He would send a baaaaaaa message randmonly with a laughing emoji to take the sting out of it. Was shielding my mum at the time. In the bin he went. Not interested.
Vaccine apathy, vaccine antipathy, vaccine skepticism and anti-vaccine sentiments come from all the things that have been mentioned so far (to different degrees) but there is so much more than that to it too. For instance, it isn’t just about individuals and attributes assigned to their personal selves. Social constructions are arguably more important. So discourses matter — of trust, of imagined identities, of institutions, of science. So do social representations — “common sense” knowledge of what systems, processes, ideas and customs are in society. Sociocultural concepts of how individuals fit into societies make a difference.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
That's why I would encourage anyone whose loved ones mates etc show signs of this stuff watch them closely cos things can get very weird very fast. Qanon anonymous has some great episodes where they analyse "the fall" of people on FB, tic toc etc, and often it happens very quickly
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two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
There is always hope for them I think - same with cults. For me it was "Fuck me I don't have to do this any more" when I came out. Whether you'll still want to talk to them after that side of their character has taken over is a different manner.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
Yep. He knows where I'm at. He knows why I blocked him too. So it's entirely up to him. Life is hard enough without having a mate churning away with that stuff.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Yep - is the way to do it. Arguing just pushes them further into it. With a cult you can try to point out inconsistencies in what the cult leader says, or what they say versus what they do. That doesn't work if you've got a different cult leader every youtube video - I'm not sure how they actually get through it.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
Chilling. It actually chills me to think about too long.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
That's a good point I hasn't thought of, I wonder if that lack of a singular leader makes it this stuff more resilient as it is possible for people to shift sideways if some figureheads or views seem discredited or lose appeal for some reason. Cults do seem more about the 'great leader', the conspiracy stuff seems more about the individual themselves maybe?
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bimble
floofy
What if its your mum that you're worried about, teetering on the early stages of the deep rabbit hole?
I made the mistake of having a proper argument with her about it last week (about how the covid vaccines don't in fact kill unborn babies , and they didn't cause your friends neighbours cancer to resurface etc) .
Did get a bit out of hand, i think i was shouting at the end, which i almost never do.
I don't think the argument helped anything at all tbh but i can't just be like, oh well, if she descends into unreachable madness never mind just cut her off.
I am worried because if she did become ill with something I don't know what would happen, whether she'd get proper help or listen to her mad herbalist friend instead. She is vaccinated though, but she only did it cos she was scared of not being allowed into cafes or whatvever.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I don't know - you never do until it happens - but I think, if someone close and indispensable to me started down that rabbit hole, I'd be setting some very firm boundaries: "You and I have fundamental differences on this - I would like it if you didn't bring these subjects up with me."
Rinse and repeat, along with something along the lines of "You are not being very respectful of my feelings - I have ASKED you not to talk about this, so please stop."
bimble
floofy
Yeah thats not what i want though. I don't think that would help at all.
She still sometimes asks my opinion, and listens to me. For instance ages ago she sent me the notorious 'plandemic' video and asked me what i think, and i was able to explain to her why it was wrong and dangerous.
Banishing them, sending them off to only talk to others in their orbit can't be the answer.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Yep is difficult
I'd try just listening and agreeing with any points that aren't batshit: government not listening to people but that's because they have huge majority and Johnson's an arsehole, perhaps agree that the vaccine is very new but say how much testing it's had because so much money has been thrown at it, drug companies not to be trusted but you have to fall back on scientific method and looking for information from the great number of doctors and researchers - not the outliers on youtube.I had a bit similar with my mum many years ago. She announced during a car journey that the police were monitoring her every move and breaking into her house and rearranging things. That continued for years so I just listened as much as I could. Similarly when people suggested she go see the doctor that was the last time she'd talk to them.
I can't say I actually helped (and there was a danger that I was just confirming her beliefs by nodding along) but eventually I think I was the only person she'd talk to. It was heartbreaking because it took over her mind and she was a real sweetie
Eta: existentialist may well be right though. My sis was a psychiatrist that was the approach she took - partially though I think because she had it all fucking day with her clients. May still have been a better approach than mine though. Eta eta - or perhaps not in view of your subsequent post
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I think for me the thing is to dig deeper and find out what they're really worried about and try and address that with facts and politics. Almost ignore the conspiracy stuff that they layer on top of their deeper worries, and part of that is then explaining how conspiracy stuff actually helps those in power as it stops people seeing the real problems. It does take effort though.
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krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
And if they persist in sending videos and links? If it becomes an almost daily assault on your senses, your sanity, even, what then?
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
How much time does she spend online?
bimble
floofy
That's different, yeah. That's not happened to me and i'd probably follow the cut em off / banish the subject in that case.
bimble
floofy
As far as i can tell with my mum its all coming from one friend of hers, a "qualified herbalist" who probably spends all her time online.
She is unvaccinated and constantly visiting my parents who are in their mid 70s, and has been sending her child round to their flat throughout the pandemic for fucking music lessons from my dad. I have never met this woman and i hate her.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
If they've got any sense left at all, sooner or later they'll notice that a) these people who they surround themselves with are dodgy and weird and b) everyone else has gone. It's that personal level of realisation that's most likely to effect a wider change of thinking I reckon, rather than noticing that a particular aspect of the dogma doesn't bear scrutiny. The 'content' is so sprawling, ever-changing and nonsenical that it's basically impossible to take a rational approach to any of it anyway.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Yeah, sorry. Was amalgamating a whole bunch of people and incidents there.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
So do I.
bimble
floofy
Absolutely agree with this in principle & as an idea but, my mother for instance is not really worried about anything significant at all as far as i can tell, she's basically a cheerful contented woman financially fine and with a very nice little life thank you very much. But she is very easily influenced and has a history with alternative medicine. Maybe there's more to it but i dont know in her case.
klang
klang
can't think of one single person who sniffed the rabbit hole and came back, unfortunately.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
'Alternative health' stuff is some gateway drug to this shit. Presumably she's into that partly due to a mistrust of medicine though? And sometimes it's related to feeling like the 'modern world' is a bit fucked up and alienated from, and destructive of, the natural world?
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