The Socialist Party

[dennisr]

What happened to the councillor in Stoke (the one who didn't lose his seat to the BNP last year)?

Yep, I forgot that one - Its not so significent as folk elected (and re-elected again) as SP (or against New Labour policies in the case of Huddersfield) though.
Funny, you did not expand on the reasons for the other councillor losing his seat because of the 3-way split of votes? But anyway...

ps you are still in the labour party as well ain't you mate??

 

[audiotech]

I am still in the LP because, in short, and in my constituency, I've got more chance of successfully "fighting for issues that interest working people" within it than outside it.

I wish you well within the Labour Party successfully "fighting for issues that interest working people".

The problem is of course that in reality 20,000 working class nurses, who are now apparently 'surplus to requirements' and thousands of civil servants are about to lose their jobs. As well as public sector workers who are having their pay cut by a Labour Government.

Some people never learn.

 

[glenquagmire]

And I, along with plenty of people in the Labour Party, have done plenty to oppose those cuts.

dennisr - as for whether there is a left force in the party - the four most active members of my branch are myself (left), two trots and an ex-tankie. While we have plenty of disagreements, there's nobody in the branch who will stand up for New Labour. So yes, there is a force, but it is in its weakest position since the party was founded. Until there's a credible alternative, it's still worth remaining a member I reckon. And that doesn't stop me demonstrating, voting, shouting or whatever against the latest stupid New Labour balls-up.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Yep, I forgot that one - Its not so significent as folk elected (and re-elected again) as SP (or against New Labour policies in the case of Huddersfield) though.
Funny, you did not expand on the reasons for the other councillor losing his seat because of the 3-way split of votes? But anyway...

ps you are still in the labour party as well ain't you mate??

Not surprised you forgot him ... he (Dave Sutton) now appears to have joined the LibDems!!! From Labour to SP to LibDems, what did you do to drive him that way? Can't remember reading about that in the Socialist, though you were a bit full of it when you recruited him? Not much of an advert for you now is he.

http://www.moderngov.stoke.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.asp?UID=177&J=1
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2006/429/index.html?id=np3.htm

The other councillor (his brother Paul Sutton - is he still an SP member?) lost because the BNP and New Labour got more votes than him ... I only made the comment about the BNP because I remembered the seat because of it but I couldn't remember his name.

And no I am not in the Labour Party.

 

[imposs1904]

There are two.

The Socialist Party (ex-Militant) now part of Socialsit Alliance, Campaign for a New Workers Party, etc.

The Socialist Party of GB: anti-Leninist loons who have been denouncing everyone since 1904 and you have to pass a test to be a member. One of the more amusing tiny far-left sects.

Ouch, but I'm glad we amuse you glen.

 

[dennisr]

Not surprised you forgot him ... he (Dave Sutton) now appears to have joined the LibDems!!! From Labour to SP to LibDems, what did you do to drive him that way? Can't remember reading about that in the Socialist, though you were a bit full of it when you recruited him? Not much of an advert for you now is he.

And no I am not in the Labour Party.

That comes as a genuine surprise to me - and, of course, a galling one. 1-0 to you I suppose. "Full of it" being the FG translation of 'an article on why two longstanding councillors had left the LP'?

When did you leave the LP?

 

[dennisr]

And I, along with plenty of people in the Labour Party, have done plenty to oppose those cuts.

dennisr - as for whether there is a left force in the party - the four most active members of my branch are myself (left), two trots and an ex-tankie. While we have plenty of disagreements, there's nobody in the branch who will stand up for New Labour. So yes, there is a force, but it is in its weakest position since the party was founded. Until there's a credible alternative, it's still worth remaining a member I reckon. And that doesn't stop me demonstrating, voting, shouting or whatever against the latest stupid New Labour balls-up.

you sound genuine to me - the problem is 'New' Labour are very clearly running the show. I'd argue that we need an alternative to labour, that I don't see it as being transformable in the wake of the collapse of stalinism and the international collapse of the social democratic parties in that wake. Its not just a blip in the UK - its an international trend. I don't think that alternative can come from within the labour party because of the change in both its structure and composition (membership). Thats not to say i don't wish Macdonalds (? - thats the right fella isn't it?) campaign the very best of luck but i don't think it has a chance in hell what with the simple fact that the active working class has walked out of the party already (and I don't mean the 'militant' or the 'left'). The old membership has voted with its feet and that is also reflected in the voting patterns of the wider working class.

I am genuinely sad to say that a couple of old trots, a tankie and you - holding on to a dream that does not sound likely at all won't change that view.

 

[imposs1904]

Not surprised you forgot him ... he (Dave Sutton) now appears to have joined the LibDems!!! From Labour to SP to LibDems, what did you do to drive him that way? Can't remember reading about that in the Socialist, though you were a bit full of it when you recruited him? Not much of an advert for you now is he.

http://www.moderngov.stoke.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.asp?UID=177&J=1
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2006/429/index.html?id=np3.htm

From the Labour Party to SPEW to the Lib Dems?

Mmm, maybe SPEW should have a membership test for its members as well.

 

[dennisr]

Mmm, maybe SPEW should have a membership test for its members as well.

its not quite the same as a 100+ years of an entire organisation doing jack shite though is it?... Not one single effective role on one single occasion in 100+ years... Utterly irrelevent for 100+ years... (my turn to snigger i suppose...)

 

[Fisher_Gate]

That comes as a genuine surprise to me - and, of course, a galling one. 1-0 to you I suppose. "Full of it" being the FG translation of 'an article on why two longstanding councillors had left the LP'?

When did you leave the LP?

I didn't know when I asked the question - I was genuinely surprised when I checked it out especially as he must have gone LP to SP to LibDems in less than 12 months and his brother stood for you less than 12 months ago and spoke at the CNWP conference.

2000

 

[bashthefash]

The Socialist Party of England & Wales are like a demented Pseudo-Leninist Basil Fawlty, "No-one mention the Revolution!".

 

[nightbreed]

you sound genuine to me - the problem is 'New' Labour are very clearly running the show. I'd argue that we need an alternative to labour, that I don't see it as being transformable in the wake of the collapse of stalinism and the international collapse of the social democratic parties in that wake. Its not just a blip in the UK - its an international trend. I don't think that alternative can come from within the labour party because of the change in both its structure and composition (membership). Thats not to say i don't wish Macdonalds (? - thats the right fella isn't it?) campaign the very best of luck but i don't think it has a chance in hell what with the simple fact that the active working class has walked out of the party already (and I don't mean the 'militant' or the 'left'). The old membership has voted with its feet and that is also reflected in the voting patterns of the wider working class.

I am genuinely sad to say that a couple of old trots, a tankie and you - holding on to a dream that does not sound likely at all won't change that view.

Indeed a lot of people have left the LP. It is a shadow of its former self from what it was in the early 80s and structurally quite an undemocratic party with all the 'reforms' that took place in the 90s. Saying that there has been very poor alternative offered to ex members of the LP , especially working class members and trade unionists, who have left the LP.The Socialist Alliance, Respect and the CNWP/SPEW have been largely insignificant.

You cant just blame that on the decline of socialist consciousness nationally and internationally since the fall of the USSR. It certainly is a small part of the problem but not the main part.A lot of workers think they are ok. Yes you have really pissed off sections (publicsector, nurses etc) but generally there is a level of satisfaction. Pay rises are creeping up (BBC news this week) and workers generally feel there isnt any point to intervene in elections (look at the low turnouts in past elections and on May 3rd)

The main problem is the inability of organisations such as Respect and the CNWP to build a workers party to attract an increasingly disenfranchised and marginalised working class and former members of the LP. There are plenty of socialists in both organisations (in RUC and SPEW) with the knowledge , experience and enthusiasm to make a difference but apart from in isolated areas of the country it isnt happening. Why is this?

I think if people want to remain in the LP and fight their corner , good luck to them. The John McDonnell LP leadership campaign has at least started some form of fightback however insignificant it is seen by the SP or the RUC.

While the LP still has its link with the TUs there is going to be no new workers party to oppose New Labour. Insignificant calls to break the link have and will continue to fall on deaf ears until the TUs are transformed into fighting organisations. By the time that happens the Tories will be back in power and the working class votes previously lost by the LP will return to them.

Depressing innit!!

 

[Fisher_Gate]

That comes as a genuine surprise to me - and, of course, a galling one. 1-0 to you I suppose. "Full of it" being the FG translation of 'an article on why two longstanding councillors had left the LP'?

When did you leave the LP?

Actually they both seem to be standing in the local elections as "Independent" so presumably they have resigned from the SP - and there are no SP candidates in Stoke, a place where you once boasted about how successful your electoral activity had been and where you once had two councillors. If I was a member of a revolutionary marxist organisation that happened to, I'd want a full accounting of what went wrong. SP members are happy to accept the leadership hype without question, it seems.

http://www.stoke.gov.uk/ccm/cms-service/stream/asset/?asset_id=1460569

2004:

Socialist Party candidates had very good results. ...Steve Pugh in Stoke gained 12% (312 votes)
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2004/352/index.html?id=np2.htm

2006:

The main reason for this was the role of the Socialist Party in providing a serious working class based alternative to the attacks of New Labour. This small increase in the BNP’s vote was eclipsed by the very significant increase of 196 votes received by the Socialist Party. We were the only party to increase our share of the vote in this election - from 12% to 17%. In fact, the Socialist Party is the only party which has increased its number of votes every year since we first stood in 2003.

In Abbey Green, Labour were hammered. They lost 463 votes from 2004 and the Tories were down by 170. Echoing Labour lies, sleaze and corruption nationally, the local Labour machine was a disgrace.

Completely ignoring the threat posed by the BNP, they devoted two of their three leaflets to telling lies about the Socialist Party and making personal attacks on our candidate and the sitting councillor, Paul Sutton. Paul’s ‘crime’ was to make a principled stand against Labour’s relentless cuts in jobs and services, annual increases in council tax and privatisation.

In Stoke-on-Trent, New Labour is in even deeper crisis than before the elections. They have lost overall control of the council and the leader of the Labour group, Mike Salih, has lost his seat and quit the party because they are "Tories in disguise".

While the local Labour machine was attacking us in their leaflets we were also playing a major part in building for the marvellous demonstration of 5,000 NHS workers in defence of NHS jobs and services.

Only the Socialist Party was able to put activists on the streets every day and our election campaign was well received by the vast majority on the doorstep.

Twice as many of our posters were put up in windows as Labour. As a result of our consistent work we have earned a tremendous respect in the area and many have expressed an interest in joining the Socialist Party.

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2006/439/index.html?id=pp6.htm

2007:

Err, nothing! Forward march of the New Mass Workers Party halted?

 

[urbanrevolt]

It is fairly depressing. I think the main thing is to try to build resistance from the ground up, through workplaces, rank and file in trade unions, campaigns in communities, like the occupation against an academy in Wembly.

In terms of elections if most workers feel there isn't any point to intervene in elections then they are right in the sense that elections in and of themselves arfe not the fundamental means to change society- it is the self-organisation of the working class. However, i think many workers still do look to elections and it is easy to exaggerate people's disillusion with a particular labour government- very few workers have yet broken with reformism

In terms of building a new party I think we should relate to the McDonnell campaign, especially in the unions ad start asking what are we going to do next, begin to think about standing independent candidates. But the main thing is to get a network of militants in the trade unions, in community campaigns and begin to work together there.

This can begin to rebuild a sense of working class solidarity and resistance and though I think nightbreed is right that the relatively high level of wages - despite some pockets of cuts and attacks- may be a brake on people becoming radicalised there is also the opportunity for unions to use the relative economic upturn to organise for higher wage settlements. But it will take organisation, perseverance and communication.

Marxists- i'm in the pretty small but dead good i assure you www.permanentrevolution.net- will need to work with other activists and militants up and down the country- including with our rivals (not being sectarian) to begin to link up the pockets of resistance to begin to unravel the sense of complaceny and defeatism that allows the bosses to keep stitching things up

 

[imposs1904]

its not quite the same as a 100+ years of an entire organisation doing jack shite though is it?... Not one single effective role on one single occasion in 100+ years... Utterly irrelevent for 100+ years... (my turn to snigger i suppose...)

dennisr,

diddums if I upset your feelings. You're a Leninist and, as a steeled cadre, you should be able to get over it.

In your role as a vanguardist, you must try harder. Us proles are relying on your munificence to deliver us from this capitalistic evil. Stop taking so long.

 

[dennisr]

Actually they both seem to be standing in the local elections as "Independent" so presumably they have resigned from the SP - and there are no SP candidates in Stoke, a place where you once boasted about how successful your electoral activity had been and where you once had two councillors. If I was a member of a revolutionary marxist organisation that happened to, I'd want a full accounting of what went wrong. SP members are happy to accept the leadership hype without question, it seems.

Thats the problem i have with you FG. I appreciate the facts you provide. Its the hyperbole that one has to cut out that grates.

So apparently "leadership hype" is a general report on an election campaign and a report from the folk on the ground on the stoke campiagn at the time.

Its genuinely sad how you - the "revolutionary marxist" crow at what is clearly a set back - and not just for the SP. Utterly sectarian whereas 'bash the fash' (ho, ho ho - another wee fantasy of his) and the SPGB idiot are just that - mindless idiots. Since when did an election campaign in one borough become the "Forward march of the New Mass Workers Party " ? - do show the evidence (I know how you love evidence and statistics...). Nightbreed makes political points (which i'll come back to when I get a chance...) - you? - you just crow without considering the consequences - not just for you or your organisation, or the (clearly...) enemy organisation but for working people as a whole.

You never answered that question, when did you leave the Labour Party, FG (too busy crowing I suppose - it was a genuine question)

 

[dennisr]

Depressing innit!!

certainly can be mate - more so the effect this has on many so previous 'activists' I chat to - a general lack of confidence and falling back on the 'everyday life' battles as a replacement for larger ones. One irritating aspect - in the resulting vacuam is the that those cynics forever standing on the sidelines seem to sound a lot louder - a bit like the 'talk loud do nothing' types on this bulletin board - replacing real dialogue with sectarian sniping. (I should add - this comment is not aimed at you in any way - its a general comment on things I see in the real world around me)

Indeed a lot of people have left the LP. It is a shadow of its former self from what it was in the early 80s and structurally quite an undemocratic party with all the 'reforms' that took place in the 90s. Saying that there has been very poor alternative offered to ex members of the LP , especially working class members and trade unionists, who have left the LP.The Socialist Alliance, Respect and the CNWP/SPEW have been largely insignificant.

You cant just blame that on the decline of socialist consciousness nationally and internationally since the fall of the USSR. It certainly is a small part of the problem but not the main part.A lot of workers think they are ok. Yes you have really pissed off sections (publicsector, nurses etc) but generally there is a level of satisfaction. Pay rises are creeping up (BBC news this week) and workers generally feel there isnt any point to intervene in elections (look at the low turnouts in past elections and on May 3rd)

The main problem is the inability of organisations such as Respect and the CNWP to build a workers party to attract an increasingly disenfranchised and marginalised working class and former members of the LP. There are plenty of socialists in both organisations (in RUC and SPEW) with the knowledge , experience and enthusiasm to make a difference but apart from in isolated areas of the country it isnt happening. Why is this?

I would agree with your comments on the Labour Party and that one cannot just blame that on one thing - on the decline of conciousness. (I was pushing that significent aspect - imo - though in reply to the words of the previous LP poster. I don't though get your jump to "the main problem' - of course these are all small developments - they simply do not have the weight to achieve an aweful lot be themselves. I would say the SP is punching way above its weight (in terms of size ans resources nowadays), more than it ever had to do before - and that is still not enough (i think we both agree on that). All we can do is lay the ground as far as possible.

Unlike FG for example I do not see the largely (at the moment...) sloganising of a need for a new workers party as 'building my own organisation' (something FG does not seem to understand).

Neither do I see this as seperate from the re-building of the trade union movement (and yes, fully agree on that point you made as well). I don't think the 'reasons why that is' will result in a return to the Labour Party by the working class - bridges have been well and truly burnt and the struggle you rightly point to to transform the union movement mean an overthrow of the present leaders and their ideology if the trade unions are to be re-claimed and re-built as fighting organisations. That will come out of action to defend what little we still have and as a result will be a long and extended fight with setbacks and steps forward (as a layer still go through desperate illusions in somebody else - in the form of the tu leadership - coming along and 'saving' them - ie in them not changing the situation themselves).

There is no easy option. As for the McDonell campaign - I have already said similar - good luck to them - but stated I don't see it as having a chance due to the way the LP has been re-structured and the way the tu leaders are behaving. I tihkn the movements within for example the RMT and PCS are small but more significent than the McDonell election campaign.

I don't agree that the trade union link has the significence it once did (hence my own membership of the then labour party for a long time) or is intact in the way it once was. That sounds like hope over experience speaking to me (not that this makes me happy in any way...). I don't see any force - any genuine movement of working people - inside the labour party at the moment or any reason to believe that will change in the next period of time. Only a thin layer of folk clinging on to the coattails - on broken dreams of a broken past. Its depressing to see.

So no point being there, imo - better putting out a marker than can be taken up as folk move into action.

The results of the McDonell election are worth waiting for before we continue this though - it will be interesting to see.

 

[Sue]

And I, along with plenty of people in the Labour Party, have done plenty to oppose those cuts.

dennisr - as for whether there is a left force in the party - the four most active members of my branch are myself (left), two trots and an ex-tankie. While we have plenty of disagreements, there's nobody in the branch who will stand up for New Labour. So yes, there is a force, but it is in its weakest position since the party was founded. Until there's a credible alternative, it's still worth remaining a member I reckon. And that doesn't stop me demonstrating, voting, shouting or whatever against the latest stupid New Labour balls-up.

Thing is Glen, doesn't matter how much you try and dissociate yourself from New Labour, it's your party and your government that've implemented measure after measure that disproportionately affect those the party was set up to represent. What policy would be so unpalatable to you that you would actually leave the Labour party? Or are you one of those people that'll stay in it no matter what as long as you can shout about this policy and that thus making yourself feel better about the whole thing?

And as to the changing it from within thing, well one might've thought that sorting out the manifesto/policies at conference would be a start but hey, you can vote all you like and still be ignored (a la fourth option on council housing for example) so that all seems a bit pointless really. Maybe give us a shout when you've got that bit sorted eh?

 

[audiotech]

And I, along with plenty of people in the Labour Party, have done plenty to oppose those cuts.

Well do enjoy yourself banging your head against a brick wall.

The number of people who've said it's important to be inside changing from within have either ended up being changed to the very thing they were opposed to in the first place, or given up in total disgust.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

...

You never answered that question, when did you leave the Labour Party, FG (too busy crowing I suppose - it was a genuine question)

Yes I did answer the question - reread the posts.

And I am not crowing. I just hate the triumphalism of Militant/SP of the ...

"Only Militant/SP put forward a bold socialist programme ..."

"We have made many contacts that we will build on to build an alternative ..."

"Struggle X led by Militant/SP shows the importance of bold socialist leadership ..."

sort of shite.

You never acknowledge the dialectic, there are positive and negative lessons in all battles and sometimes we have to accept setbacks and imperfections. I was just pointing that out.

The best thing the SP could do at the moment is join Respect and help make it better. Pissing on the sidelines is no use to anyone.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Yes but while Militant may have been triumphalist and perhaps more importantly seriously misleading about the importance of parliamentarism - reinforcing rather than challenging the myth of Labour on a socialist program being enough- Respect and the SWP within in it seem to have abandoned taking a clear socialist politics based on class.

On that level I can't join Respect or campaign for it, though of course can undertake joint work in the class struggle with Respect candidates and think it might be good to have meetings of trade unionists and community activists including Respect, SP, what is left of the left in the LPs and others to discuss and plan action in the class struggle including the possibility of standing candidates on an anti-cuts. anti-war, fighting program. If such meetings or may be a series of meetings led to candidates elected by mass meetings with the policies chosen by those meetings and accountable to them and such a process built up serious representation of a section of the working class in that area then I think that could be a valuable process and yield candidates and polcies worthy of support and engagement.

 

[dennisr]

Yes I did answer the question - reread the posts.

Then I owe you an apology - can't see where you said though (?) - when did you leave the LP again?

And I am not crowing. I just hate the triumphalism of Militant/SP of the ... "Only Militant/SP put forward a bold socialist programme ..." "We have made many contacts that we will build on to build an alternative ..." "Struggle X led by Militant/SP shows the importance of bold socialist leadership ..." sort of shite. You never acknowledge the dialectic, there are positive and negative lessons in all battles and sometimes we have to accept setbacks and imperfections. I was just pointing that out.

Tharts the same old, same old FG - maybe you could just shorten this to "I just hate the Militant/SP". Any 'acknowledgement of the dialectic' is in the tactical and strategic approach taken not in quotes either taken out of context or (probably...) made up.

The best thing the SP could do at the moment is join Respect and help make it better. Pissing on the sidelines is no use to anyone.

And this is the crux FG - this is all you have to offer. If Respect offered a structure in which different trends could have a genuine dialogue - a genuine united front - i would agree with you. As it is, I am closer to the poster above. I am afraid that no organisation worth its salt is going to simply 'join' regardless of very basic differences in approach and act as a cheerleader simply because it wants the development of an independent voice for working people. There has got to be some principled, open, honest, democratic agreement before one can put all of ones eggs in that basket - and that is not what is on offer. It might be the superficially 'easy' option for the desperate but the SP is not that desperate. Like all genuine lefts we hoped for (and still hold open the small possibility of... - but further tainted by the reports of quite a serious battle brewing between the SWP and its erstwhile 'allies' for 'control' in Tower Hamlets) a genuine development of Respect - until that time we simply have to get on with the hard task of re-building that independent voice through the genuine openings available as opposed to the fantasy ones.

 

[dennisr]

Yes but while Militant may have been triumphalist and perhaps more importantly seriously misleading about the importance of parliamentarism - reinforcing rather than challenging the myth of Labour on a socialist program being enough- Respect and the SWP within in it seem to have abandoned taking a clear socialist politics based on class.

That comment is at best disingenouous (christ, my spelling...), revolt. Given the lead taken by the Militants in Liverpool, in Scotland and with the first socialist councillors to stand against and defeat new labour in england/wales. I think your version of what you were fully aware was a tactical position due to previous entrist work - to be able to then build an organisation capable of interveining in real events (something you folk have yet to do I am afraid...) is the 'misleading' bit.

I actually have a lot more time for the tiny but generally sincere WP and (maybe more so... having listened to the less savory more shouty young guns of the 'new' WP in these boards...) its split PR than for certain other groups. I wonder though how its members keep going without ever stepping back and questioning why they remain so small in size and influence after quite a long period and despite their view of their 'revolutionary purity'? Surely you want want to influence real events and that means interveining within the more significent forces on the left - either the SP or the SWP (ie getting your hands dirty...)?

 

[glenquagmire]

Thing is Glen, doesn't matter how much you try and dissociate yourself from New Labour, it's your party and your government that've implemented measure after measure that disproportionately affect those the party was set up to represent. What policy would be so unpalatable to you that you would actually leave the Labour party? Or are you one of those people that'll stay in it no matter what as long as you can shout about this policy and that thus making yourself feel better about the whole thing?

And as to the changing it from within thing, well one might've thought that sorting out the manifesto/policies at conference would be a start but hey, you can vote all you like and still be ignored (a la fourth option on council housing for example) so that all seems a bit pointless really. Maybe give us a shout when you've got that bit sorted eh?

Don't know understand this dismissive nonsense about "shouting about the policy and making yourself feel better about the thing". Shouting has never been an effective way of getting anything done, though shouty newspaper sellers from far-left splinter groups have never quite grasped this.

Inside the Labour Party, we have very little influence on what happens to the country. Outside it, you have none whatsoever.

I still have faith that the Party can be reclaimed. It might be misguided but it's the only hope we have at the moment. Every other party is a dead end and worthy of a protest vote at best.

 

[dennisr]

Shouting has never been an effective way of getting anything done, though shouty newspaper sellers from far-left splinter groups have never quite grasped this.

Yep, I can appreciate that understandable jibe quag - "some of our own worst enemies are..." etc. I tihkn this has been made worse by a period of 'defeat' - the shoutier types sound louder in this vacuam. They are also more prevelant on bulletin boards than in real life. The problem with your wariness is you don't then see what is still being achieved by plenty of less shouty but nethertheless 'far-left' (to your way of thinking...) individuals embedded in the unions, in thier communities. They are the only folk I can see doing anything to stop the attacks led by your neo-liberal government

Inside the Labour Party, we have very little influence on what happens to the country. Outside it, you have none whatsoever.

I don't agree - see the union militancy thread or go to any local campaign against housing selloffs, privatisation of the nhs etc etc - and see who is involved. I would argue they are more effective than going to LP ward meetings

I still have faith that the Party can be reclaimed. It might be misguided but it's the only hope we have at the moment. Every other party is a dead end and worthy of a protest vote at best.

That is the crux of your argument - and i can understand your viewpoint even if I don't agree with it. I don't think us argueing with each other will change that. Both our arguements will be proven by experience. One thing I wonder though is what happens after the McDonald (sorry still cannot remember his name correctly...) election? if he gets trounced? - what is the next move for genuine lefts still inside Labour?

 

[belboid]

Inside the Labour Party, we have very little influence on what happens to the country. Outside it, you have none whatsoever.

You dont realy believe that do you? A motion passed at a ward labour party meeting has more influence than a workers' strike, or an tenants campaign on their estate? Arrant nonsense.

 

[Sue]

Don't know understand this dismissive nonsense about "shouting about the policy and making yourself feel better about the thing". Shouting has never been an effective way of getting anything done, though shouty newspaper sellers from far-left splinter groups have never quite grasped this.

Mmm, took that from your previous:

And that doesn't stop me demonstrating, voting, shouting or whatever against the latest stupid New Labour balls-up.

I still have faith that the Party can be reclaimed. It might be misguided but it's the only hope we have at the moment. Every other party is a dead end and worthy of a protest vote at best.

Ah, I see we're moving onto the 'best of a bad lot' argument which is hardly an inspiring reason to go out and vote for the buggers. I await the 'things'll be different when Gordon Brown gets in, he's a socialist unlike that nasty Tony Blair' argument which I can feel coming on any second...

 

[nino_savatte]

Originally Posted by glenquagmire
I still have faith that the Party can be reclaimed. It might be misguided but it's the only hope we have at the moment. Every other party is a dead end and worthy of a protest vote at best.

I wish I shared your optimism but the sad fact is that the Labour benches have been stuffed with number-crunchers, managers and yesmen. Those that have any principles have been marginalised. It's in their best interests to leave the party.

Clause 4 was only the beginning.

 

[glenquagmire]

dennisr - it seems that we agree on a number of points. As I have said elsewhere, I would find it difficult to hold it against any ex-Labour activist if they decided to look elsewhere at election time. Almost none of my friends, colleagues and family are in the party any more. I can't blame them for that, although we disagree.

Sue - if you're expecting a defence of Gordon Brown from this quarter you'll be disappointed. I've been vigorously campaigning for McDonnell and can't find it in me to ever defend the architect of PFI etc. I agree that "best of a bad bunch" is hardly an inspiring reason to vote for anyone, but unless you have a candidate in your area with whom you agree on everything, that's how elections work.

To clarify: I was not suggesting that single issue campaigns and union activity are ineffective. But neither are they and membership of the Party mutually exclusive. I fail to see why socialists ought not to fight against New Labour policies in the workplace/on the street, and simultaneously fight against them (against overwhelming opposition from the top) within the Party. What I meant is that any left party aside from Labour is doomed to more-or-less irrelevance and there is more chance, slim though it is, of reclaiming the Labour Party than of winning power for the left by means of any other party.

 

[Sue]

Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, John McDonnell -- all as bad as each other in my opinion. And to be honest, I see a party which had principles but ditched them as much worse than a party that never had any at all.

And sorry, but by being a member of that party and (I assume) trying to make sure their candidates are elected etc, you are complicit in the PFI, the piecemeal privatisation of the health service and all the rest of it.