The Slow Fix - IWCA on the rise of UKIP and decline of the left...

[cesare]

#173 needs NSFW spoiler

 

[DrRingDing]

True that, it's like lefties on the internet 'debating' what the best solution to Palestine/Israel is: one state or two!!1!

Or no state

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The author of the article is on Urban, if he sees the need to defend his article from your incisive political criticism (aka 'shite) I'm sure he will rise to the challenge.

Haven't you got a pasta thread to contribute your 'shite' to?

You're still the only Trot tossing yourself off here today Bellend.

Which particular political outfit is it that you're a member of again? Please remind us...

<image snipped - ffs - FM>

Bellend - "Useless Tosser"

Don't post images of penises

 

[framed]

I haven't tried to label anyone a racist, do try to stop making things up.

And I imagine and hope that Joe will do a rather better job of it than you managed, tho that wouldnt be difficult.

You can 'imagine' all sorts of things, but you gave the game away yesterday when you referred to 'strasserites' and continued for the whole afternoon to try to elicit a response that you could hang the 'racist' and 'reactionary' labels to.

Transparent and obvious... and it looks like you intend to continue in the same vein today, avoiding any actual engagement with the content of the article while trying to goad people into a desired response.

Playground? You're in the infants class pal.

 

[Joe Reilly]

This is a very interesting, and telling, post. It sums up a lot of the far-left's assumptions of "ordinary working people's views". The reactionary, backwards working class who are "indoctrinated" by the media whose ideas are far behind those of the advanced socialists, like yourself.

This is what the IWCA are against and which, in my opinion, should be commended for.

Essentially the conservative Left despise the working class - and the working class know it - and hate them for it.

Which is precisely why, from the very beginning the conservative Left, also hated the IWCA.

 

[belboid]

'belated', 'mainly old' - compared to?

As for 'gross over estimates' - surely that point is yet to proved one way or the other?

Well, the stuff on the left is well old, pretty much from the foundation of the IWCA. The BNP stuff has got some good and useful points in there, and is deffo the articles strongest section - but it could/should have been written two years ago. Nothing has really changed for the BNP since then, and its cards were well and truly marked (tho I dont think you had accepted that at that point). On UKIP, well, depends what the point was. That they would like WC support is obvious, and whether they will get it is indeed still to be proven, but you still overstate the extent to which it has made inroads.

The stuff on immigration...well that just leads to shite like the last four or five pages of this thread. The article makes some fairly standard points about the nature of migration and the role it plays, but then says.....You cant just leave an argument like that hanging, you need to finish it off with something concrete.

Had the IWCA called themselves 'of the left' before? OR called the BNP fascist ‘true believers’: - I thought you rejected those labels previously, tho I may be mis-remembering

 

[belboid]

You can 'imagine' all sorts of things, but you gave the game away yesterday when you referred to 'strasserites' and continued for the whole afternoon to try to elicit a response that you could hang the 'racist' and 'reactionary' labels to.

Transparent and obvious... and it looks like you intend to continue in the same vein today, avoiding any actual engagement with the content of the article while trying to goad people into a desired response.

I pointed out to you that ayatollah called you a Strasserite. You really hadn't bothered reading his post had you? Or mine, clearly. You're a liar, and a fucking lazy one at that.

 

[framed]

I pointed out to you that ayatollah called you a Strasserite. You really hadn't bothered reading his post had you? Or mine, clearly. You're a liar, and a fucking lazy one at that.

You are a button pusher and not a very adept one.

Keep trying though...

 

[belboid]

No, I have no interest in arguing with lying frauds.

I hope Joe can bring himself to reply tho

 

[framed]

Well, the stuff on the left is well old, pretty much from the foundation of the IWCA. The BNP stuff has got some good and useful points in there, and is deffo the articles strongest section - but it could/should have been written two years ago. Nothing has really changed for the BNP since then, and its cards were well and truly marked (tho I dont think you had accepted that at that point). On UKIP, well, depends what the point was. That they would like WC support is obvious, and whether they will get it is indeed still to be proven, but you still overstate the extent to which it has made inroads.

The stuff on immigration...well that just leads to shite like the last four or five pages of this thread. The article makes some fairly standard points about the nature of migration and the role it plays, but then says.....You cant just leave an argument like that hanging, you need to finish it off with something concrete.

Had the IWCA called themselves 'of the left' before? OR called the BNP fascist ‘true believers’: - I thought you rejected those labels previously, tho I may be mis-remembering

It's all 'stuff' and 'shite' Joe.

Marvellous.

 

[treelover]

You can 'imagine' all sorts of things, but you gave the game away yesterday when you referred to 'strasserites' and continued for the whole afternoon to try to elicit a response that you could hang the 'racist' and 'reactionary' labels to.

Transparent and obvious... and it looks like you intend to continue in the same vein today, avoiding any actual engagement with the content of the article while trying to goad people into a desired response.

Playground? You're in the infants class pal.

what worries me is that his approach will also be one used by groups like the ISN in Left Unity(which I am now sure will have some success if it survives the first year) when inevitably the issue of uncontrolled mass immigration comes up, they have already said they are forming a faction with other Trot remnants to "fight for their politics''

 

[belboid]

what worries me is that his approach will also be one used by groups like the ISN in Left Unity(which I am now sure will have some success if it survives the first year) when inevitably the issue of uncontrolled mass immigration comes up, they have already said they are forming a faction with other Trot remnants to "fight for their politics''

and this is the kind of cunt you end up with arguing like the IWCA

You're more than welcome to him

 

[treelover]

The inequality, poverty, petty brutalities, that millions now face is too important to be left to 19th C ideologues who care more about their inane outdated dogmas than they do working class people.

 

[framed]

and this is the kind of cunt you end up with arguing like the IWCA

You're more than welcome to him

 

[treelover]

posted on ISN, blog, "L/U is still up for grabs"

Clearly, he or she means that they can mould/take it over, how does that help people who face years of poverty, groups, always seem to come first with Trot groups

btw, I am talking about ideologies not individuals unlike belboid..

 

[framed]

posted on ISN, blog, "L/U is still up for grabs"

Clearly, he or she means that they can mould/take it over, how does that help people who face years of poverty, groups, always seem to come first with Trot groups

btw, I am talking about ideologies not individuals unlike belboid..

ISN ??? Did I miss the establishment of a new mass party?

 

[treelover]

http://internationalsocialistnetwork.org/


Sorry, its the breakaway from the SWP, International Socialist Network

yes, can't believe I bother following all this, just worried there will never be a real alternative to the three parties if they all carry on like before

 

[framed]

Former member of Militant, Prof Dennis Tourish, has an interesting thesis based on his (and others) experiences inside a Trotskyist cult...
Ideological intransigence, democratic centralism and cultism: a case study from the political left

 

[Joe Reilly]

On UKIP, well, depends what the point was. That they would like WC support is obvious, and whether they will get it is indeed still to be proven, but you still overstate the extent to which it has made inroads.

The point is that until very recently UKIP never showed any interest in working class votes. And vice a versa. The point is they have over night leap-frogged the BNP as the main anti-immigrant party.
The point is that the main anti-immigrant party is now attracting the share of vote common for these parties on the Continent.
The point is that following on from the BNP attempting to fill the vacuum now another right wing party is having a go. Having a go, in what is nominally the constituency of the left, but the left is refusing 'to be provoked'.
The point is that UKIP is immune to the Nazi label.
The point is that UKIP is bigger and better funded than the BNP.
The point is that unless the keep on their current political trajectory a very large chunk of this hugely inflated anti-immigrant vote may well return 'home' freshly laundered and legitimised at some future date.
The point is the left has been losing the argument for more than 30 years and instead of addressing any of the core issues in that time tribal narcissism is the only response.
The point is you have sat and watched it happen. You are lazy, stupid, dishonest cowardly and hypocritical.
The point is your a fucking disgrace.

 

[treelover]

The point is that unless the keep on their current political trajectory a very large chunk of this hugely inflated anti-immigrant vote may well return 'home' freshly laundered and legitimised at some future date

Good post, but don't understand this bit

 

[The39thStep]

If UKIP don't continue their political success then there could be a pool of politicised people who could be recruited by a reconstituted euro fash

 

[Limerick Red]

Good post, but don't understand this bit

Think he means when UKIP eventually lose the blatent anti immigration rethoric in a further step towards wholesale legitimacy, the people who voted for them expecting big changes in this department will return to voting for the far right ?

 

[treelover]

tx, worrying..

 

[Citizen66]

It's nothing to worry about. Is it, belboid?

 

[treelover]

I think a lot of WILOTL is basically deluding itself:, the far left has never done well in this country, certainly not comparable to those in Europe and FPTP will ensure in England that it stays that way, imho, the only way it can have influence is as part of something bigger, L/U could I reckon get 5% easily at the polls, but more importantly it could help foster wider coalitions/networks which could possibly arrest the slide to the right, which for much of the century has been the default position here, leaving aside the fact many left minded people don't vote. whatever, something has to change, no time for ego's and agendas.

 

[framed]

I think a lot of WILOTL is basically deluding itself:, the far left has never done well in this country, certainly not comparable to those in Europe and FPTP will ensure in England that it stays that way, imho, the only way it can have influence is as part of something bigger, L/U could I reckon get 5% easily at the polls, but more importantly it could help foster wider coalitions/networks which could possibly arrest the slide to the right, which for much of the century has been the default position here, leaving aside the fact many left minded people don't vote. whatever, something has to change, no time for ego's and agendas.

Gonnae stop using uncommon abbreviations please T/L (that one was deliberate)

WILOTL - ?

FPTP - ?

L/U - Left Unity (?)

 

[DotCommunist]

First Past The Post- wrt our voting system

Left Unity- wrt the latest 'into the tent all ye socialists!' attempt

no idea on the other one


edit 'What is Left of The Left'

 

[Delroy Booth]

Although I find it laughable that others call for it without calling for a report on the SWPs decline or the SPs from Militant.

I'd happily second that btw

 

[framed]

First Past The Post- wrt our voting system

Left Unity- wrt the latest 'into the tent all ye socialists!' attempt

no idea on the other one


edit 'What is Left of The Left'

Cheers. I should have got FPTP - doh!

'What Is Left Of The Left' (WILOTL) - thanks DC.

The rustiness of being a long time away from using lefty jargon...

 

[Citizen66]

I didn't realise we'd now evolved into writing completely sentences using abbreviations