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The Slow Fix - IWCA on the rise of UKIP and decline of the left...

:facepalm: You really are stupid, arent you? If you agree with that statement, then you agree that everything YOU are arguing also supports capital.

No. I quoted your post and made an extrapolation from it in the same way as you have made some fantastical extrapolations from my posts based on things I didn't say... :p
 
You're conflating the principle of freedom of movement with employers' seizing of the principle to extract more profit. No. Freedom of movement is ok as long as migrant workers have exactly the same terms and conditions as the indigenous workers.
Absolutely. framed's mistake is in trying to get the state to do the unions work for us. He seems to think that the state is impartial, and not on the side of capital. Otherwise, why would he want the state to do our job for us?
 
No. I quoted your post and made an extrapolation from it in the same way as you have made some fantastical extrapolations from my posts based on things I didn't say... :p
I didnt have to extrapolate anything to show where you called migrants workers scabs, so the comparison doesnt hold. It also doesn't hold because that sentence STILL criticises your opinion in the same way it criticises my own. try to keep up.
 
oh, and if we can influence the bourgeouise state enough to impose Socialist Immigration Controls, why cant we just use the same state to implement laws to stop any supposed undercutting of wages?
 
some migrants good, some migrants bad. you really are all over the shop.

Where have I said or inferred 'some migrants good some migrants bad'? Not at all. I'm not an Irish nationalist so I don't really see what point you are trying to make out of Irish immigration to Britain in the 19th Century. All immigrant workforces are open to manipulation by employers. There were riots at pit heads in Lanarkshire over scab Irish labour being brought in. Towns like Croy are still exclusively Catholic and Irish because it was essentially a scab village used by employers to break strikes and curb the demands of the local workforce. I have no romanticism about Irish immigration, which is why I do not romanticise immigration per se. On one level it was about escape from the great hunger of An Gorta Mor, on another it was used as a convenient cosh to beat down the demands of an emerging labour movement in Britain.
 
Absolutely. framed's mistake is in trying to get the state to do the unions work for us. He seems to think that the state is impartial, and not on the side of capital. Otherwise, why would he want the state to do our job for us?

Putting words in my mouth again Bellend. I have not asked the state do anything, I haven't even mentioned 'the state'. I would expect the labour movement to protect equally the rights of local workers and those of immigrants. If immigrants are in some cases used to undermine pay and conditions here, shouldn't the labour movement also have a position on that?
 
Really? Can you really not see the mass of contradictions in your argument? You want to use the bourgeoise state to try to control capital, you have no problem with Irish migrants to Jute factories, but do with German ones, you think migrant workers are coming explicitly to undermine T&C's and to scab, but they're not scabs. You are all over the shop!

cesare got it right:
You're conflating the principle of freedom of movement with employers' seizing of the principle to extract more profit. No. Freedom of movement is ok as long as migrant workers have exactly the same terms and conditions as the indigenous workers.


We use OUR organisations to defend our class, not their state.
 
Putting words in my mouth again Bellend. I have not asked the state do anything, I haven't even mentioned 'the state'. I would expect the labour movement to protect equally the rights of local workers and those of immigrants. If immigrants are in some cases used to undermine pay and conditions here, shouldn't the labour movement also have a position on that?
Who is going to bring in the immigration controls then? Its either a workers defence squad or the state.

If I have to put words in your mouth its because you haven't thought through your drivel.

If migrants are used to undermine T&Cs, we stand beside them (as best we can) to stop those T&Cs being undermined. Anything else is falling into the bosses divide and rule
 
Really? Can you really not see the mass of contradictions in your argument? You want to use the bourgeoise state to try to control capital, you have no problem with Irish migrants to Jute factories, but do with German ones, you think migrant workers are coming explicitly to undermine T&C's and to scab, but they're not scabs. You are all over the shop!

Where do you get this stuff from? You are reading words that aren't even there!

Did I say that Irish immigration was not a problem? Clearly my last post about the Irish being used as scab labour passed you by.

cesare got it right:

We use OUR organisations to defend our class, not their state.

:D It's almost nostalgic, this tripe. :D

YOUR organisations are not worth a fcuk though, are they, which is why the employers and 'the state' are winning.
 
I did not say that migrants are scabs, I asked a pertinent question relating to immigration and who benefits from it from a class point of view. Marx regarded the movement of workers from Germany into the Jute factories in Dundee in the late 19th Century as scabbing not as a panacea for a brave new socialist world.

I'll pose the question again, In the context of the EU who benefits from an Open Borders policy, workers or employers?

I'll answer your question, framed, but not in the misleading terms in which it is put. This is, as you have said in relation to the 19th century Dundee Jute industry, hardly a new issue. Thoughout the development of capitalism the capitalist class have brought in new labour supplies to feed their boom periods, and of course undermine the ability of the indigenous workers to use basic restriction of labour supply tactics to force wage rates up. The biggest single cohort of migrant workers brought to Britain for this purpose historically was of course the Irish - prior to the major influxes of Commonwealth and now EU migrant workers much more recently. Who benefits from an unlimited labour supply ? The capitalist class of course, certainly, for one. Though the downstream benefits to the migrant worker receiving economy and population generally are considerable too - being mainly young and fit and already trained the welfare costs to the economy of this new labour pool is minimal. Also a lot of migrant workers do jobs (such as meat and poultry production) which is so horrible that indigenous workers simply don't want to do it. Therefore the entire society, and living standards for everyone in that prospering economy, can be argued to benefit from the cheap labour inputs of migrant workers. It is also an issue of considerable academic debate as to whether the influx of new labour supply has been a major factor in the falling share of national income going to ordinary workers wages over the last 30 years. Other factors, eg, trades union restricting legal impositions and broad work restructuring (outsourcing - breaking up the "big battalions" of labour), globalisation of production (shifting Big Industry to the oppressive states of the former Third World), and saturation by the current overwhelming mass media "free enterprise" pro capitalist ideological hegemony , are all more important elements in the toxic package that is the neoliberal economic system.

Nevertheless an unlimited new labour supply does undoubtedly does make it harder to force up wage rates by traditional trades union labour supply restriction alone. Does this mean the Left and Labour Movement should therefore campaign to restrict immigration though ? Here one has to step well back from the simplistic and poisonous idea that campaigning to restrict immigration would achieve anything positive for the working class at all. Firstly the capitalist class aint going to agree to restrict free labour entry - so a huge campaign would have to be mounted - based on the completely false premise that incoming migrant workers are a key element in the indigenous population's current economic hardships. They aren't a key though cause are they ? The bankers crashed the world economic system , not migrant workers. The Falling Rate of Profit since the 1970's and the chaotic nature of the capitalist system generally, produces its crisis - not migrant workers. The Austerity Offensive is a major offensive against ALL workers of whatever origin, by the capitalist class, worldwide. To redirect "indigenous" worker's anger in each state at their declining living conditions to their fellow workers of foreign origin - is to play directly into the divide and rule game of the bosses .

Given the Catholic Irish origins of many IWCA activists, I would have thought at least the folk memory of the vicious scapegoating of Irish migrant workers across Britain during the late 19th and early 20th centuries by racists suggesting "if only the Irish would fuck off back to Ireland and stop competing for our jobs - we'd all be better off", would have put off the IWCA from falling into this completely diversionery and reactionery political position. Apparently not. The IWCA, and obviously you too , framed, are all too ready to fall into the same old divide and rule trap. During the 20th century there have been a number of attempts by confused workers, particularly in the USA, to set up trades unions which would extend further the entry restrictions of Craft Unionism - to entry only by racial or national identity - culminating in that famous reactionery modification of Marx's old slogan - to become "White Workers of the World Unite".

All the IWCA "analysis" and "critiques" of the Lefts' positions on a range of issues , "multiculturalism/identity politics", immigration, child abuse, drug dealing, Islam, actually does is pander to the prejudices of the most politically backward sections of the poorer, least educated, least organised , sections of the working class - the "Lumpen Proletariat" in fact - the historical source of minor "proletarian" support for the largely lower middle class composed fascist movements . There is nothing new about pandering to racism or cultural prejudice for electoral benefit by supposedly "Leftish" groups, or claiming that it is" pro-working class" campaigning to restrict immigration. This line of politics leads those who hold to it eventually to some form of working class neo fascist "Strasserism" - and of course to eventually siding with ones "own" ruling class and "national interest" against the workers and "their" bosses of other nation states. It just does. Always. Any organisation which goes down that route is doing the work of the bosses in dividing the working class and confusing them as to who the priority real enemy is - the capitalist class and their capitalist system.
 
The analysis in the original posts was refreshing, as are most IWCA articles I read. Thanks for posting that. I'd love to see the IWCA model applied in a areas around my way. Their analysis and the issues they focus on are far more in touch with ordinary working people's views than the left, which is probably why any mention of their name on here brings out the usual lefty cynicism from the usual suspects.
 
I'll answer your question, framed, but not in the misleading terms in which it is put. This is, as you have said in relation to the 19th century Dundee Jute industry, hardly a new issue. Thoughout the development of capitalism the capitalist class have brought in new labour supplies to feed their boom periods, and of course undermine the ability of the indigenous workers to use basic restriction of labour supply tactics to force wage rates up. The biggest single cohort of migrant workers brought to Britain for this purpose historically was of course the Irish - prior to the major influxes of Commonwealth and now EU migrant workers much more recently. Who benefits from an unlimited labour supply ? The capitalist class of course, certainly, for one. Though the downstream benefits to the migrant worker receiving economy and population generally are considerable too - being mainly young and fit and already trained the welfare costs to the economy of this new labour pool is minimal. Also a lot of migrant workers do jobs (such as meat and poultry production) which is so horrible that indigenous workers simply don't want to do it. Therefore the entire society, and living standards for everyone in that prospering economy, can be argued to benefit from the cheap labour inputs of migrant workers. It is also an issue of considerable academic debate as to whether the influx of new labour supply has been a major factor in the falling share of national income going to ordinary workers wages over the last 30 years. Other factors, eg, trades union restricting legal impositions and broad work restructuring (outsourcing - breaking up the "big battalions" of labour), globalisation of production (shifting Big Industry to the oppressive states of the former Third World), and saturation by the current overwhelming mass media "free enterprise" pro capitalist ideological hegemony , are all more important elements in the toxic package that is the neoliberal economic system.

Nevertheless an unlimited new labour supply does undoubtedly does make it harder to force up wage rates by traditional trades union labour supply restriction alone. Does this mean the Left and Labour Movement should therefore campaign to restrict immigration though ? Here one has to step well back from the simplistic and poisonous idea that campaigning to restrict immigration would achieve anything positive for the working class at all. Firstly the capitalist class aint going to agree to restrict free labour entry - so a huge campaign would have to be mounted - based on the completely false premise that incoming migrant workers are a key element in the indigenous population's current economic hardships. They aren't a key though cause are they ? The bankers crashed the world economic system , not migrant workers. The Falling Rate of Profit since the 1970's and the chaotic nature of the capitalist system generally, produces its crisis - not migrant workers. The Austerity Offensive is a major offensive against ALL workers of whatever origin, by the capitalist class, worldwide. To redirect "indigenous" worker's anger in each state at their declining living conditions to their fellow workers of foreign origin - is to play directly into the divide and rule game of the bosses .

Given the Catholic Irish origins of many IWCA activists, I would have thought at least the folk memory of the vicious scapegoating of Irish migrant workers across Britain during the late 19th and early 20th centuries by racists suggesting "if only the Irish would fuck off back to Ireland and stop competing for our jobs - we'd all be better off", would have put off the IWCA from falling into this completely diversionery and reactionery political position. Apparently not. The IWCA, and obviously you too , framed, are all too ready to fall into the same old divide and rule trap. During the 20th century there have been a number of attempts by confused workers, particularly in the USA, to set up trades unions which would extend further the entry restrictions of Craft Unionism - to entry only by racial or national identity - culminating in that famous reactionery modification of Marx's old slogan - to become "White Workers of the World Unite".

All the IWCA "analysis" and "critiques" of the Lefts' positions on a range of issues , "multiculturalism/identity politics", immigration, child abuse, drug dealing, Islam, actually does is pander to the prejudices of the most politically backward sections of the poorer, least educated, least organised , sections of the working class - the "Lumpen Proletariat" in fact - the historical source of minor "proletarian" support for the largely lower middle class composed fascist movements . There is nothing new about pandering to racism or cultural prejudice for electoral benefit by supposedly "Leftish" groups, or claiming that it is" pro-working class" campaigning to restrict immigration. This line of politics leads those who hold to it eventually to some form of working class neo fascist "Strasserism" - and of course to eventually siding with ones "own" ruling class and "national interest" against the workers and "their" bosses of other nation states. It just does. Always. Any organisation which goes down that route is doing the work of the bosses in dividing the working class and confusing them as to who the priority real enemy is - the capitalist class and their capitalist system.

Thanks for that. You engaged with the question and answered it. I am in broad agreement with the analysis in your first two paragraphs. The last two paragraphs are a complete misrepresentation of my views and those of the IWCA,

BTW, just because I ask a question does not mean that I am advocating a policy, and certainly not one of pitting indigenous workers against migrant workers. That interpretation and inference has been applied by you and others, not by me.
 
Where do you get this stuff from? You are reading words that aren't even there!

Did I say that Irish immigration was not a problem? Clearly my last post about the Irish being used as scab labour passed you by.



:D It's almost nostalgic, this tripe. :D

YOUR organisations are not worth a fcuk though, are they, which is why the employers and 'the state' are winning.
You have difficulty thinking things through. Do tell me how you are going to implement your Socialist Immigration Controls without recourse to the state?

did you actually read ayatollahs post, btw? Cos he's basically calling you a Strasserite :D

The analysis in the original posts was refreshing, as are most IWCA articles I read. Thanks for posting that. I'd love to see the IWCA model applied in a areas around my way. Their analysis and the issues they focus on are far more in touch with ordinary working people's views than the left, which is probably why any mention of their name on here brings out the usual lefty cynicism from the usual suspects.
refreshing? Despite it mostly simply rehashing what they've said before (although with a few things that contradict what they've said before) topped off with a bit about UKIP that is either a bog standard description of their politics or is just taling rubbish about their influence within the working class?

Well, some people are easily pleased i guess.
 
BTW, just because I ask a question does not mean that I am advocating a policy, and certainly not one of pitting indigenous workers against migrant workers. That interpretation and inference has been applied by you and others, not by me.
you don't mean to, but I'm afraid you do.
 
I have not advocated 'Socialist Immigration Controls' anywhere in this thread.

I agreed with the economic analysis put forward by the Ayatollah in his first two paragraphs. The rest is tripe like your tripe Bellend.
 
I have not advocated 'Socialist Immigration Controls' anywhere in this thread.
So you support Open Borders? It has to be one or the other. If there are no immigration controls, then there are open borders. And you have made it clear you dont support open borders, so you must support immigration controls.

Unless of course you mean you support capitalist immigration controls.
 
So you support Open Borders? It has to be one or the other. If there are no immigration controls, then there are open borders. And you have made it clear you dont support open borders, so you must support immigration controls.

Unless of course you mean you support capitalist immigration controls.

And you think I'm stupid? This is spin and sophistry, schoolboy debating points. Grow up Bellend.

I asked who benefits from an Open Borders policy, employers or workers... that was it.
 
The analysis in the original posts was refreshing, as are most IWCA articles I read. Thanks for posting that. I'd love to see the IWCA model applied in a areas around my way. Their analysis and the issues they focus on are far more in touch with ordinary working people's views than the left, which is probably why any mention of their name on here brings out the usual lefty cynicism from the usual suspects.

Is this your sad, craven, role, mk12, to be like the prearranged party hustlers at big political public meetings, sent round to mingle with the crowd and say "well I'm completely independent but I certainly think that makes sense" and "he's certainly convinced me !" and "golly that was refreshingly frank" to as many listeners as possible ?

Maybe you should just face up to the logic of your apparent reactionery politics and join UKIP, mate .They also I believe have a "refreshing" take on issues like immigration, multiculturalism, Muslims, and a host of other issues the IWCA was also concerned about. And they seem to be mining the ignorance and prejudice widespread amongst the capitalist media indoctrinated "ordinary folk" very successfully at the moment - unlike the completely failed IWCA project.
 
And you think I'm stupid? This is spin and sophistry, schoolboy debating points. Grow up Bellend.

I asked who benefits from an Open Borders policy, employers or workers... that was it.
you asked:
Is the rejection of an Open Borders policy on class grounds (i.e. protection of workers rights and conditions from scab labour) reactionary?
remember? its where you equate migration with scabbing.

So, do you reject Open borders or not? There you certainly seem to, don't you? And if you do reject Open Borders, what is your alternative?
 
I'm just keeping you going Bellend... :p

You've said a lot more than I have on this thread. Keep it up. :D
hey, when you descend to playground insults, then you really must be winning the argument! You're even more all over the shop than the OP.
 
hey, when you descend to playground insults, then you really must be winning the argument! You're even more all over the shop than the OP.

Oh, it's about 'winning', is it? As I said schoolboy debating points...

As for the OP, it's a post that you have yet to make a single relevant political point about... Bellend. :p
 
Oh, it's about 'winning', is it? As I said schoolboy debating points...

As for the OP, it's a post that you have yet to make a single relevant political point about... Bellend. :p
The points you ignored three pages back? Even citizen66 managed to engage with them, which is more than can be said for you.

Now, stop trying to wriggle, and answer - are you for open borders or immigration controls? can you have 'class based' immigration controls?

(actually, you are more than welcome to take to to another thread, if you do wish to start talking about the OP)
 
Really? Fucking really?

What a fucking waste of fucking breath.

:(

Open borders vs. immigration controls?

Fuck's sake.

Two fucking simple fucking points:

1/ whichever the bosses choose to implement at the moment is for THEIR benefit.

2/ come the day we have enough power/influence to decide border and immigration policy we'll have enough power/influence to make it irrelevant.

Therefor there is absolutely no fucking need and no fucking point in advocating or opposing either at this point.

What we should be doing is constantly pointing out how the bosses are using this and undercutting their divide and rule by fighting for jobs, wages and working conditions...and keeping the debate there. Dragging it back every time immigration s flaunted as an easy target.

Grrr. Sometimes you lot....

;)
 
Really? Fucking really?

What a fucking waste of fucking breath.

:(

Open borders vs. immigration controls?

Fuck's sake.

Two fucking simple fucking points:

1/ whichever the bosses choose to implement at the moment is for THEIR benefit.

2/ come the day we have enough power/influence to decide border and immigration policy we'll have enough power/influence to make it irrelevant.

Therefor there is absolutely no fucking need and no fucking point in advocating or opposing either at this point.

What we should be doing is constantly pointing out how the bosses are using this and undercutting their divide and rule by fighting for jobs, wages and working conditions...and keeping the debate there. Dragging it back every time immigration s flaunted as an easy target.

Grrr. Sometimes you lot....

;)
Quite right.
 
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