The Slow Fix - IWCA on the rise of UKIP and decline of the left...

[nino_savatte]

UKIP aren't that popular outside the South East.


http://stevenplrose.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/ukip-and-the-rise-of-voter-apathy/

Like any minority party, Ukip have gained from low turnouts. It's not a reflection of their popularity nationwide. I'd argue UKIP simply picked a candidate that spoke in a language that would appeal to traditional conservative voters: http://www.electionleaflets.org/leaflets/full/79d145f8-0cfa-4f54-9dac-ad5be5f18b5f/

James is an astute figure at local council politics, having won the Cranleigh and Ewhurst division on Surrey County Council in a by-election as an independent (but not declaring her UKIP membership).

Indeed. They're even less popular in Scotland.

 

[Citizen66]

lead the only succesful workers revolution in history. commanded the red army in the civil war. namechecked by you over seventy years after his death. you're just talking shit.

You're a trot?

Oh he was a COMMANDER was he? And he LED those workers did he? Must be a very important man.

 

[belboid]

You're a trot?

Oh he was a COMMANDER was he? And he LED those workers did he? Must be a very important man.

any chance of a reply to the criticisms 'Citizen'? Or are you just going to continue sneering condescendingly?

 

[Pickman's model]

any chance of a reply to the criticisms 'Citizen'? Or are you just going to continue sneering condescendingly?

this is urban: we all sneer condescendingly here.

 

[Citizen66]

any chance of a reply to the criticisms 'Citizen'? Or are you just going to continue sneering condescendingly?

You don't think a party to the right of the conservatives coming second is worrying? That's fine. But as you don't live in the region its easy enough to be dismissive about it I suppose.

 

[belboid]

You don't think a party to the right of the conservatives coming second is worrying? That's fine. But as you don't live in the region its easy enough to be dismissive about it I suppose.

Yesterday you claimed a party on 3% of the vote were almost winning, now at least you stepped back from that a little. It's an anti-politics vote, and not a particularly big one at that. It isn't evidence of them making much headway into working class areas, as the article claims. They're not organising on the streets to deport immigrants or to smash working-class action.

The SPGB comes second in some north-east seats. Doing so hasn't helped them much.

 

[The39thStep]

Yesterday you claimed a party on 3% of the vote were almost winning, now at least you stepped back from that a little. It's an anti-politics vote, and not a particularly big one at that. It isn't evidence of them making much headway into working class areas, as the article claims. They're not organising on the streets to deport immigrants or to smash working-class action.

The SPGB comes second in some north-east seats. Doing so hasn't helped them much.

what is the highest percentage that the SPGB have ever had in an election?

 

[seventh bullet]

You're a trot?

Oh he was a COMMANDER was he? And he LED those workers did he? Must be a very important man.

Stalin called the ponce an Operetta Commander.

Trotsky didn't do it all on his own though. He managed to persuade a few old Tsarist officers to change their allegiances.

 

[belboid]

what is the highest percentage that the SPGB have ever had in an election?

I think they got about 20% of the vote (probly 4% of the electorate) in one seat. Where Labour was the only other candidate.

 

[framed]

Maybe the unreconstructed left will have to accept that open borders is untenable, the Dutch SP moved to this position and has had electoral success, no left group except maybe Syriza has by supporting O/B.

Is the rejection of an Open Borders policy on class grounds (i.e. protection of workers rights and conditions from scab labour) reactionary?

It's an issue that I seldom see discussed on the left because there seems to be a general acceptance of O/B and anyone who argues an alternative view is dismissed as being racist and/or right-wing.

In the context of the EU who does an O/B policy benefit, workers or employers?

 

[belboid]

Is the rejection of an Open Borders policy on class grounds (i.e. protection of workers rights and conditions from scab labour) reactionary?

migrants are scabs now are they!

That isn't class politics.

 

[Random]

Sorry but I have yet to see an immigration policy based on class consciousness. Perhaps one for the future?

Maybe a working group of advanced socialists could draw up an Alternative Citizenship Test, based on how high the potential immigrants score on the Class Awareness Scale?

 

[framed]

migrants are scabs now are they!

That isn't class politics.

I did not say that migrants are scabs, I asked a pertinent question relating to immigration and who benefits from it from a class point of view. Marx regarded the movement of workers from Germany into the Jute factories in Dundee in the late 19th Century as scabbing not as a panacea for a brave new socialist world.

I'll pose the question again, In the context of the EU who benefits from an Open Borders policy, workers or employers?

 

[articul8]

Maybe a working group of advanced socialists could draw up an Alternative Citizenship Test, based on how high the potential immigrants score on the Class Awareness Scale?

Points based system where reading Pannekoek scores 100?

 

[belboid]

I did not say that migrants are scabs, I asked a pertinent question relating to immigration and who benefits from it from a class point of view. Marx regarded the movement of workers from Germany into the Jute factories in Dundee in the late 19th Century as scabbing not as a panacea for a brave new socialist world.

you wrote:
the rejection of an Open Borders policy on class grounds (i.e. protection of workers rights and conditions from scab labour)
which means you did equate migrant workers with scabs. Quite plainly.

Have you managed to work out what 'falling into 'the domain of UKIP'' actually means yet?

I'll pose the question again, In the context of the EU who benefits from an Open Borders policy, workers or employers?

What a stupid question. As in anything - whether that be open borders or your preferred protectionism - is done for the benefit of capital. The extent to which we mitigate the effect depends upon the class forces opposing capital. Not by accepting their divide and rule tactics.

 

[treelover]

I did not say that migrants are scabs, I asked a pertinent question relating to immigration and who benefits from it from a class point of view. Marx regarded the movement of workers from Germany into the Jute factories in Dundee in the late 19th Century as scabbing not as a panacea for a brave new socialist world.

Funny how for the Trots/Text dwellers they can reel off absolutely loads of Marx, but conveniently that bit is ignored..

 

[framed]

you wrote:
the rejection of an Open Borders policy on class grounds (i.e. protection of workers rights and conditions from scab labour)
which means you did equate migrant workers with scabs. Quite plainly.

No. I did not say that migrants are scabs and I reject your inference. However, you said it in your reply.

I have no problem with immigration or 'migrants' as you refer to them, but if particular groups of workers are encouraged by employers and governments to move around countries in order to undermine and undercut trade union rates of pay, what would you call it?

Have you managed to work out what 'falling into 'the domain of UKIP'' actually means yet?

It means that UKIP now regard working class votes as falling within their electoral domain (or orbit, if you prefer). How difficult is that for you to understand?

What a stupid question. As in anything - whether that be open borders or your preferred protectionism - is done for the benefit of capital. The extent to which we mitigate the effect depends upon the class forces opposing capital. Not by accepting their divide and rule tactics.

So, the employers benefit from Open Borders, not the working class. Thanks.

 

[cesare]

Some working class migrant employees benefit from Open Borders.

 

[framed]

Some working class migrant employees benefit from Open Borders.

Often at the expense of others... where's the class solidarity in that?

 

[cesare]

Often at the expense of others... where's the class solidarity in that?

Where's the class solidarity in expecting them to stay where they are with worse living standards?

 

[Idris2002]

You're a trot?

Oh he was a COMMANDER was he? And he LED those workers did he? Must be a very important man.

The pump don't work, cuz the vandals took the handles.

 

[framed]

Where's the class solidarity in expecting them to stay where they are with worse living standards?

So, by that logic, freedom of movement to undercut the conditions of another workforce in another country is ok?

 

[belboid]

No. I did not say that migrants are scabs and I reject your inference.

it is what you wrote. And you say it again later in this post! If you think migrants workers are scabs, stop your shilly-shallying and say so.

I have no problem with immigration or 'migrants' as you refer to them, but if particular groups of workers are encouraged by employers and governments to move around countries in order to undermine and undercut trade union rates of pay, what would you call it?

See, you call migrant workers scabs. Again. IF workers are brought in to undermine TU rates, then that should be opposed. By working with, and offering solidarity to, those migrant workers. Not by using protectionist measures, which have been tried many times in the past, and never, ever, to workers' advantage. But, in fact, most EU workers arent brought in to undermine T&C's. Most come of their own accord and find a job themselves. Despite many attempts by people to find evidence to support your supposition, none has ever been found. So your whole basis for Socialist Immigration Controls is without foundation.

Oh, and I note that when you ask whether workers or bosses benefit, you are only referring to the British worker, not the migrant worker. That's nice of you

It means that UKIP now regard working class votes as falling within their electoral domain (or orbit, if you prefer). How difficult is that for you to understand?

took you long enough, you couldnt explain it yesterday And, that really means fuck all, doesnt it? A political party wants votes from the largest class. Wow, there's an insight worth starting a thread about.

So, the employers benefit from Open Borders, not the working class. Thanks.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise English wasn't your first language, tho that does explain why you have so many things arse over tit, including your comprehension of that sentence.

 

[belboid]

So, by that logic, freedom of movement to undercut the conditions of another workforce in another country is ok?

come no, just call them all scabs, you know you want to!

 

[belboid]

oh, and you do know that those Jute works were overwhelmingly staffed by.....Irish migrants. The scabby bastards

 

[cesare]

So, by that logic, freedom of movement to undercut the conditions of another workforce in another country is ok?

You're conflating the principle of freedom of movement with employers' seizing of the principle to extract more profit. No. Freedom of movement is ok as long as migrant workers have exactly the same terms and conditions as the indigenous workers.

 

[framed]

I'm sorry, I didn't realise English wasn't your first language, tho that does explain why you have so many things arse over tit, including your comprehension of that sentence.

Ho hum... "As in anything - whether that be open borders or your preferred protectionism - is done for the benefit of capital."

Your words not mine. Open Borders benefits capital.... Thanks again.

 

[framed]

oh, and you do know that those Jute works were overwhelmingly staffed by.....Irish migrants. The scabby bastards

Yes, and so were the pits in some areas of Lanarkshire. The Irish were indeed used as scab labour. And your point is caller?

 

[belboid]

Ho hum... "As in anything - whether that be open borders or your preferred protectionism - is done for the benefit of capital."

Your words not mine. Open Borders benefits capital.... Thanks again.

You really are stupid, arent you? If you agree with that statement, then you agree that everything YOU are arguing also supports capital.

 

[belboid]

Yes, and so were the pits in some areas of Lanarkshire. And your point is caller?

some migrants good, some migrants bad. you really are all over the shop.