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The Slow Fix - IWCA on the rise of UKIP and decline of the left...

Joe Reilly said:
The point is that until very recently UKIP never showed any interest in working class votes. And vice a versa.
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And now they have shown some. They're a political party, they've established themselves within their main base, and so of course they are attempting to gain support from the working class, they have to. That, in itself, is of no consequence. It's only if/when they succeed that there is a consequence. And so far their incursions into WC votes is weak. It isn't non-existent, but its still far far weaker than their support amongst the middle class types. The BNP were seen as a mainly working class party, no one would say that about UKIP (that was still clear from their PPB)

The point is they have over night leap-frogged the BNP as the main anti-immigrant party.
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Hardly overnight, they've been the respectable wing of anti-immigrants for years, ready to take over the mantle. They did so two years ago.
The point is that the main anti-immigrant party is now attracting the share of vote common for these parties on the Continent.
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So far only in an election that was best suited to their ambitions. But, yes, they certainly are coming at least close to Euro levels for right-wing populists in quite a few areas.
The point is that following on from the BNP attempting to fill the vacuum now another right wing party is having a go. Having a go, in what is nominally the constituency of the left, but the left is refusing 'to be provoked'.
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That's just a repeat of your first point. Political party in trying to win votes, shocker.
The point is that UKIP is immune to the Nazi label.
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Absolutely true. There may be the odd clearly ex-fascist candidate, but overwhelmingly they wont be. But, just as the Nazi label did stick to the BNP, it is going to be very hard for UKIP to shake off their image of being golf club bores and weirdo poshos. The BNP could connect with working class people because they talked like working class people. They could come across as representing the values of working class people. UKIP dont, and it is very hard to see how they can change that without alienating their core, tory shire, votes. Especially when some of their newly elected councillors come out with the barking nonsense they're likely to. The academic piece referred to in the article says that they have made some headway into WC votes, but only amongst the older (grew up before the eighties)and the well skilled working class - many of whom will not see themselves as working class. That obviously isn't an insignificant group, but it is one with their own distinct interests within the class as a whole.
The point is that UKIP is bigger and better funded than the BNP.
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Can't argue with that at all.
The point is that unless the keep on their current political trajectory a very large chunk of this hugely inflated anti-immigrant vote may well return 'home' freshly laundered and legitimised at some future date.
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Sorry, what does this mean? They'll return to the BNP (or a successor fascist organisation), and somehow the fact that they voted for another party will make them clean and legitimate? I dont see how that makes sense, or what you mean otherwise.
The point is the left has been losing the argument for more than 30 years and instead of addressing any of the core issues in that time tribal narcissism is the only response.
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I dont really now what tribal narcissism means. But I also dont think you are wholly wrong about the lefts failings, by any means. That TUSC leaflet you refer to in the article is terrible - and I can say that quite easily even tho I think your response is terrible too. Our failure to win WC support has indeed been shameful, and there are various things from the IWCA projects that should be learnt.
The point is you have sat and watched it happen. You are lazy, stupid, dishonest cowardly and hypocritical.
The point is your a fucking disgrace.
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You have fuck all idea what I have and haven't done over the last decade, you are leaping to assumptions on the basis that you say I'm a 'trot.' I'll tell you a couple of things I did do tho. One was that, at least when the organisation I was last part of (the Socialist Alliance) fell apart, I was willing to openly and honestly look at why it did so. Not something you can say. I also set up not one, but two running clubs. I must admit, that contribution I made to the IWCA mayoral campaign was a waste tho.


So, what does any of that mean?

UKIP are trying to makes inroads into working class votes. They don't seem to have got that far as yet, and have a whole host of obstacles in their way, but it isnt impossible they could make further gains, even significant ones.

What does it mean for anyone wanting a left working class alternative? Talking (and thats all we can do given our current weakness) about how the problem with Europe isn't it not being British, it's its legal insistence on a right-wing, free market economy that makes it specifically illegal for the state to intervene in most of the economy. And of how UKIP would do sweet fuck all about that, whatever they might do about immigration. Beyond that, it's basic grassroots organisation around issues that affect the day to day lives of people, issues where we can make a difference (and where UKIP could make a difference, but wont).
 
Intervene. Build. Cadre. Recruit. Centralism. Discipline. Indiscipline. Smash. Oppositionist. Comrade. Purge. Bourgeois. Layer. Expel. Vanguard. Front. Turn. Propaganda.
All these words and more are part of the very particular jargon we have been used to, both in the Socialist Workers Party and on the wider revolutionary left. Taken together, they are certainly evocative – and not in a good way.
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http://internationalsocialistnetwor...101-tom-walker-say-no-to-revolutionary-jargon

Tom Walker in the ISN blog, a step forward?

certainly don't think 'smash the bedroom tax' is doing them any favours..
 
been thinking about some of these issues lately, and I agree with John that it is not just about presentation but also about theories and practices. Perhaps the working-class isn't 'buying' what we're 'selling' not because of bad marketing, but because what we're selling isn't worth buying.
We need a decisive break with the past, with what passed for 20th-century socialism. Draping ourselves in costumes, banners and slogans of Bolshevism not only makes us look absurd in the 21st-century, but these forms have too much history that they are irredeemable. Even if our content is new, people will not look past the form to bother to find out the content.
For example, personally I don't think the ISN is thinking radically enough when it says it is committed to: "the most thorough democracy, elected committees, recallability, voluntary as opposed to bureaucratic 'discipline' (if we must use that word – 'voluntary discipline' feels like a contradiction), autonomy of local branches." All of these are good, but IMO, as someone who has grown up with computers, with the internet, I don't think that any organization which is committed to democracy has any excuse for not implementing elements of direct democracy. The internet not only allows us to keep in constant contact with one another, but it allows us through this constant contact to engage in democracy at a distance.
Also, and I've heard that there was some talk within the ISN about this. The despicable behaviour of the SWP wasn't just because of 'bad leadership', but because of the structure of the organization itself. The revolutionary left tends to be a sausage fest. Given that more than 50% of the world's population, more than 50% of the working-class, are women, we cannot keep pretending that we are a revolutionary organization when we ignore half of humanity. A commitment on the part of the ISN to staff 50% of all executive positions by women, or to introduce a collegial system, where every post has two delegates or representatives, a male and female comrade, would go a long way, IMO, toward attracting women to socialist organizations. It certainly can't hurt.
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Some interesting stuff here in the comments
 
It ain't just the words. It is the icons. Drop the hammer-and-sickle. Drop the red star. Drop the pictures of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky. Drop the clenched fist already. It is revelaing that Camila Camejo, the high profile Chilean has decided to use the North Star as a symbol because it was rooted in American revolutionary traditions, Frederick Douglass specifically.
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I like what I am reading
 
Citizen66 said:
So what percentage of the vote did they get? Because that's the significant bit.
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not an a miniscule turnout it isnt. Minority party voters, wanting to make a protest, are more likely to turn out. But even at the 11.8% they did get, it's not exactly knocking at the door, is it?
 
belboid said:
not an a miniscule turnout it isnt. Minority party voters, wanting to make a protest, are more likely to turn out. But even at the 11.8% they did get, it's not exactly knocking at the door, is it?
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Well it isn't in how you're presenting it, no.

Tell me, what percentage of the vote did they get in the 2010 GE? Obviously I know the answer so you don't have to say if you don't want. It shows that they have more than doubled their share of the vote in the space of 2 years. They have gone from coming 6th to coming second.

Nothing at all to worry about says you?
 
Citizen66 said:
Well it isn't in how you're presenting it, no.

Tell me, what percentage of the vote did they get in the 2010 GE? Obviously I know the answer so you don't have to say if you don't want. It shows that they have more than doubled their share of the vote in the space of 2 years. They have gone from coming 6th to coming second.

Nothing at all to worry about says you?
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If you read my above post, you'll see that I've said it is somewhat worrying, but still only somewhat. And that they have a fucking long way to go yet. But, no ,doubling their percentage on a miniscule turnout doesn't mean that much at all. Moving from 6th to 2nd means nothing except for propaganda purposes, and as I said, the SPGB did that. And the Socialist Alliance did it in my local council seat, with a similar percentage to UKIP. We were pleased, and obviously talked about us being 'the only challenger to Labour' at the next election, but we were never so delusional as to actually believe it.
 
482472_460857730665706_2033093124_n.jpg


We need more like this little fella...
 
belboid said:
If you read my above post, you'll see that I've said it is somewhat worrying, but still only somewhat. And that they have a fucking long way to go yet. But, no ,doubling their percentage on a miniscule turnout doesn't mean that much at all. Moving from 6th to 2nd means nothing except for propaganda purposes, and as I said, the SPGB did that. And the Socialist Alliance did it in my local council seat, with a similar percentage to UKIP. We were pleased, and obviously talked about us being 'the only challenger to Labour' at the next election, but we were never so delusional as to actually believe it.
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If the 'protest vote' was given to a socialist party I'd be happy. What is worrying is the 'protest vote' has been given to a party that is to the right of the conservatives whilst the conservatives are in power. From a traditional Labour constituency.
 
Citizen66 said:
If the 'protest vote' was given to a socialist party I'd be happy. What is worrying is the 'protest vote' has been given to a party that is to the right of the conservatives whilst the conservatives are in power. From a traditional Labour constituency.
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Yeah, we'd both be much happier if that were the case. I've enver tried to pretend that the left are coming close to doing as well as the right. That isnt going to change before the next general election either. Any rebuilding of the left will be a very slow process. It's shit.
 
belboid said:
Yeah, we'd both be much happier if that were the case. I've enver tried to pretend that the left are coming close to doing as well as the right. That isnt going to change before the next general election either. Any rebuilding of the left will be a very slow process. It's shit.
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I'm just panicking that Lab will see the 'protest vote' as meaning they're not right wing enough. They're too fucking right wing. I think what it does probably symbolise is the old anti EU anti Immigration whinge that some of the disenfranchised w/c seem to blame for their predicament. And a dead left in the region, or a left that's been too busy protesting shit to see this coming and/or prevent it. Which is pretty much what I see as pertinent in the IWCA analysis.
 
Red Storm said:
I'm sure No2EU advocated a immigration limit. Immigration to be controlled by trade unions was how one SP Manchester full timer explained it to me.

I think it's a shame that all issues can not be discussed without a knee-jerk, Laurie Penny-esque reaction of "racist".

The traditional far-left has stuck to the same old tired slogans and its not done them much good. At least the IWCA has the balls to re-think, in class terms, these ideas and put them in the modern world. Instead the SP, SWP and the rest are doing what they've been doing for the past 50 years and are controlled by the same clique of dinosaurs; no wonder they've never changed their methods.

I do agree the IWCA is too localist for my liking but at least it's bring class politics to ordinary working class people and dealing with every day problems of these people. Rather than demanding they buy a paper and overthrow international capitalism before leaving never to be seen again (or until the next local election). The IWCA has put in the graft (apparently a bad thing according to some) and put down the roots. In doing so it's achieved real mateial benefit to the lives of working clas people.

This is the pure basics of class politics. And I think we're at this stage in the UK. Instead the traditional far-left are still parading around like its 1969 or 1984. The far left needs to make its self relevant and it's programme relevant to the lies of working class people.

Back to basics!

Regarding the article. I am myself dubious of UKIPs foreseen success. I don't think it adds up on the ground. And on the IWCA's recent decline I think a candid article would befit the organisation.
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If memory serves we have been through 'the recent decline of the IWCA' before on other threads. Possibly more than once. But just to clarify, there was no decline. The pilot scheme experiment was basically put on hold in 2006, when despite getting 3,000 votes across two wards in south Islington, and coming within around a 100 votes or so of a seat in Clerkenwell (despite working just 2/3 of the ward) it was clear that we were being out-gunned by the mainstream parties, sometimes working in concert. And this would trend was only likely to increase.

That reality became even clearer in 2008 when Labour (as a Green Cllr predicted on here as it happens) mobilised across the South East to rid themselves of the IWCA in Oxford. Unseating the IWCA was for Labour 'a priority'. Was it not for the fact we had seats to defend and out of loyalty to the IWCA voters, we opted to play out the hand, otherwise the pilot scheme experiment would have been brought to an end two years earlier.


As it was, despite Stuart Craft defying the Labour strategy and holding his seat, (and the iWCA vote in the other seats holding up fairly well generally) much to their evident chagrin at the count, his standing down at the end of term was always part of the plan.

As it happens 'a candid' account was planned, but it too was put on hold until we had something to say about the future as well as the past, and as pertinently, when considerably more people than we were able to muster last time, were seriously prepared to look objectively at both the dangers of doing nothing and the opportunities from having another go.

But for that to happen, the situation will need to ripen, in my opinion, fairly considerably. That said UKIP may have put down a bit of a marker already.

So it may be sooner than we might have imagined perhaps, but not quiet yet.
 
Joe Reilly said:
If memory serves we have been through 'the recent decline of the IWCA' before on other threads. Possibly more than once.
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Any chance of a link to those discussions, I presume they took place a while ago and I wouldn't know where to start in searching for 'em. Or a new thread perhaps?

Joe Reilly said:
But just to clarify, there was no decline. The pilot scheme experiment was basically put on hold in 2006, when despite getting 3,000 votes across two wards in south Islington, and coming within around a 100 votes or so of a seat in Clerkenwell (despite working just 2/3 of the ward) it was clear that we were being out-gunned by the mainstream parties, sometimes working in concert. And this would trend was only likely to increase.

That reality became even clearer in 2008 when Labour (as a Green Cllr predicted on here as it happens) mobilised across the South East to rid themselves of the IWCA in Oxford. Unseating the IWCA was for Labour 'a priority'. Was it not for the fact we had seats to defend and out of loyalty to the IWCA voters, we opted to play out the hand, otherwise the pilot scheme experiment would have been brought to an end two years earlier.
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Just thought I'd mentioned I've never failed to be astonished at the effort and vehemence with which the Labour party goes after politicians who threaten their dominance of working-class electoral politics. This applies to both left and right, for instance the resources they poured into Dagenham and Barking to dislodge the BNP during the last general election were far beyond what any small party could muster - resources that Labour desperately needed elsewhere in London and may have made it easier for the Tories and Lib Dems to pick up votes elsewhere. Of course to some extent that's justified by the very serious danger the BNP posed, but then they did the same thing to Dave Nellist in Coventry, and whatever your opinions on the Socialist Party there's no way you can claim Nellist posed a threat, either electorally or just generally, that the BNP did.* The jubililation of certain Left-Labour people, who a few decades earlier would've been amongst the most ardent supporters of Nellist/Militant in the Labour party, was very revealing.

And if there's been no decline, and if infact the IWCA strategy is just "on hold" for the last 7 years or so, is there any chance it'll be restarted at some point? Because if the IWCA has some grand master plan that see's them gloriously return from their slumber and take on the big parties successfully surely now would be the time to do so? And if it's not possible for the IWCA to ever take on the big parties, as your posts would seem to imply, then why not call it a day and do a write-up of your experiences?

Joe Reilly said:
As it happens 'a candid' account was planned, but it too was put on hold until we had something to say about the future as well as the past, and as pertinently, when considerably more people than we were able to muster last time, were seriously prepared to look objectively at both the dangers of doing nothing and the opportunities from having another go.

But for that to happen, the situation will need to ripen, in my opinion, fairly considerably. That said UKIP may have put down a bit of a marker already.

So it may be sooner than we might have imagined perhaps, but not quiet yet.
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Is there any chance that this "candid" account you speak of will be revealed at some point, now the situation has developed. I for one would be very keen to see it.

* I must read that "Is bolshevism worse than fascism" thread sometime.
 
Corking the void

Left Unity supporter Iram Awan comments on the local council elections
In the local council elections this week UKIP won a staggering number of seats. Apparently this was the biggest surge by a fourth party on these shores since the second world war. Naturally this sends chills down the spines of many on the left who see a rightist party based on a nebulous aversion to Europe and immigration gaining ground in the political sphere. Whilst this is extremely worrying, could this by any stretch of the imagination be construed in a more positive light?

http://leftunity.org/corking-the-voi/
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An L/U members take on the UKIP surge.


What would a UKIP of the Left look like?

http://leftunity.org/what-would-a-ukip-of-the-left-look-like/
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another one by Mark Perryman
 
framed said:
"Perhaps the working-class isn't 'buying' what we're 'selling' not because of bad marketing, but because what we're selling isn't worth buying..."
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from a man who earns his living in Market research....what we are selling is the same thing that we always have being selling and always will be selling....we just need to work on the packaging!
 
I don’t want to monopolise this debate, but I have to take on Jonno’s poisonous suggestion that to be a success Left Unity will have to make concessions to the current hysteria about migrant worker entry rights, drummed up by the popular press, and undoubtedly a major plank of UKIP’s appeal.
Jonno quotes approvingly the experience of the failed IWCA political project (no doubt unknown to most here, but this small non-socialist , indeed avowedly anti-Left, grouping built a small electoral and elected councilor base on a few big white working class housing estates in cities like Oxford in the mid 1990 to 2005 period). As well as engaging in anti-crime and other types of local community activism , they fell into simply “tailing” the prejudices of their mainly poorer white working class target voters – and propagated a very dubious brew of hostility to their special take on “multiculturalism” , campaigning in the council NOT to award grants to ethnic minority projects. They also supported, as Jonno does, immigration controls – all supposedly from the claimed perspective of being “pro-working class”. The IWCA project stalled and collapsed years ago – with no councillors now, and few supporters today. It provides no model for Left Unity, other than the wrong direction, towards concessions to bigotry and racism and media created anti migrant worker public panics, in which we must not go, if we are to build a radical mass party across all ethnic divisions, rooted in the principles of brotherhood and solidarity, which are so central to socialism as a belief and a practice.
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On the LU site on UKIP, one old style slightly reformed Trot has warned fellow L/U'ers about the dangers of the IWCA approach.
 
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