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the neoliberal vision of the future

Who owns the land, O?

Why do they own it?

How do they maintain their position of ownership?

How are those that do not own land in any way free?

How would you rectify this situation?


You're trying to formulate a political philosophy based only on half the facts. It's worthless.
 
In a healthy economy with lots of economic freedom there should be an abundance of businesses competing for workers. Obviously when the ratio of (potential) employees to employers is so high it can only mean one thing: becoming an employer is too hard, too risky and too little rewarding.
The reaction of liberals to this poverty is to set up zones where businesses have even more power over workers.
 
It is very fair to characterise Peron as a fascist. Your last sentence is stupid though. Was FDR a fascist? Hmmm.

Hitler was very pleased when FDR was elected to office and sent a congratulatory note stating so. During the 30s the press was frequently comparing the New Deal with the Third Reich, and not in a bad way. The social reforms of FDR closely mirrored what was going on in Germany at the time, and FDR even resorted to classical Fascist rhetoric at the time. Here is a quote from FDRs first inaugural speech:

"If I read the temper of our people correctly, we now realize as we have never realized before our interdependence on each other; that we can not merely take but we must give as well; that if we are to go forward, we must move as a trained and loyal army willing to sacrifice for the good of a common discipline, because without such discipline no progress is made, no leadership becomes effective. We are, I know, ready and willing to submit our lives and property to such discipline, because it makes possible a leadership which aims at a larger good. This I propose to offer, pledging that the larger purposes will bind upon us all as a sacred obligation with a unity of duty hitherto evoked only in time of armed strife."



Setting that to one side, I'm not interested in your opinion of Peron. I'm more interested in your opinion of Argentina's economic performance in the last 20 years or so. And please remember that 'Peronist' does not necessarily mean Peron-like policies. Don't hide behind the fact that one party still calls itself Peronist please in your analysis.

As I said previously, I am not as familiar with Argentina as I am with other countries. But in terms of economic freedom Argentina is a disaster. It's no wonder that poverty is so prevalent in that country. Argentina is classified as "mostly unfree" and ranks 138 in the index of economic freedom.

http://heritage.org/index/Country/Argentina
 
The Chilean economy was absolutely destroyed under Allende. He did more damage to the economy percentagewise than the tsunami did to Japan's economy recently. That's the scale of the destruction of socialism that we're talking about here.
"Make the Economy Scream"

-Nixon.

A Marxist threat to cola sales? Pepsi demands a US coup. Goodbye Allende. Hello Pinochet
Originally in the Observer. Sunday, November 8, 1998
Indeed, the October 1970 plot against Chile's President-elect Salvador Allende, using CIA 'sub-machine guns and ammo', was the direct result of a plea for action a month earlier by Donald Kendall, chairman of PepsiCo, in two telephone calls to the company's former lawyer, President Richard Nixon.
 
Not only have I read history books, I also happen to know which parts of that history isn't told properly in the standard story. For instance, how many history books say that The German National SOCIALIST Worker's Party was as their name indicates, socialist? How many people know that Mussolini and Hitler were immensely popular on the left before WWII?

So, you don't actually appear to "know which parts of history" aren't told properly. I don't know about your home country (or should I say "nation-sized concentration camp"?), but over here in the UK we're taught at the age of about 12, the personal political trajectories of Mussolini and Hitler, as well as how both fascisms appropriated the language of socialism, but also for the most part dropped the political implications. We're also taught (borne out by a broad swathe of historiographic endeavour) that although the British left were guilty of supporting many unsavoury things, Fascism and its' Italian and German exemplars were not "popular" here. They were mostly reviled. Popularity with the liberal elite does not translate to popularity with the polity.

How many people know that Stalin in a propaganda war against the fascists and Nazis branded them as "right wing" to scare away the communist voters who were interested in them and wanted to vote for them?

What of those who, preceding Stalin, branded them as of the right? I'm not merely talking about "socialists", but of European right-wing intellectuals of the time. Even citizens of your own fair country.

How many people know that Stalin ALSO called the social democrats "right wing" and termed them "social fascists"? Stalins definition of "right wing" was someone who favored ANY private property in business, even when hampered by high taxes and regulations? These are historical facts that are well-known among historians, but not often retold.

Stalin was hardly the first to do so. A perusal of the history of "the German revolution", at a time when Stalin was still hiding in Baku, turns up many cases of the term being deployed against social democrats. These are facts that are broadly known not just to historians, but to anyone educated enough to digest a history text.

And then there is the socalled difficulty in defining fascism. Do you know WHY it is so hard for historians to define fascism? Because either fascism becomes extremely narrow (essentially just Italian fascism) or it also includes all socialists, all social democrats and most conservatives. The "difficulty" lies in the fact that Hitler and Mussolini were so close to the mainstream socialism at the time that if you break down their actualy policies you will find no essential differences.

Let me list a few of Hitlers policies:

- a strong welfare state (public health care, public schools, public pensions, public child care)
- strong regulations of key industries
- high taxes
- redistribution of wealth

Who does this sound most like? a) "right wing neo-liberals"? or b) centrist social democrats?

Willful misrepresentation. It isn't the policy that is in question, it's the intent behind it.

Oh, and "strong regulation of key industries" is a chimera. They weren't strongly regulated in either fascism, but rather a collusive, mutually-interdependent corporatist direction was created.
 
You're not much of a history student are you?

Surely that would depend on what constitutes a "student"?

You might take it to mean "someone who studies historical texts and synthesises an opinion in accord with what is known"

He might take it to mean "someone who looks through historical texts searching for "'hooks' from which they can construct an edifice that proves their own preconceptions".

HTH. ;)
 
Can you reference this please.

It would also need to be something more than a formality. Apparently Stalin wished Churchill well on his reelection bid in 1945, according to my old history teacher. The power elite often have a lot in common.
 
Can you reference this please.

It's been standard diplomatic practice throughout "the west" since the birth of the telegraph to send congratulatory messages for such occasions (just as messages of condolence and commiseration are sent on the death of statesmen etc). That Hitler would send one to FDR is unremarkable.

Unless, of course, you divorce such a message from it's context.
 
Who owns the land, O?

Why do they own it?

How do they maintain their position of ownership?

How are those that do not own land in any way free?

How would you rectify this situation?

All these questions are interconnected. If you're truly interested to see part of the answer I recommend to read everything by Hernando de Soto. You can get a taste of his revolutionary work in his video "The Power of the Poor":



The short version is: in most developing countries the law is hostile towards poor people. They are simply not able to cross the bureaucracy barrier and utilize the law as a tool to do business. Hernando de Soto and his team ILD has helped governments all over the world to reform their laws to integrate the extra-legal system of the poor into the law and to reduce the barriers of bureaucracy. Peru, de Soto's own home country, is one of the countries that have implemented de Soto's reforms and the result has been that Peru has had among the highest growth rates in South America, and not only for the rich.

So in summary, I would include the poor in the system, enable them to secure contracts, get an identity that gives them access to the international markets, and enable them to start formal businesses and to formually own their own homes so that they can get credit.
 
Needless to say I think it is horrible that Honduran women and girls live under such conditions, but is this due to the fact that Honduras is economically free? Let's examine that, by looking at a metric that tries to quantify economic freedom, developed by Heritage:

http://heritage.org/index/Ranking

Honduras is ranked at #99 as "mostly unfree"

http://heritage.org/index/Country/Honduras


If Honduras were a Free State all those numbers would be at or close to 100. Now, even if you know ZERO about Honduras you can as an international investor tell a lot from those numbers alone, and the most important thing of all: Honduras is a hostile place for doing business due to corruption, badly protected property rights and really bad laws and bureaucratic hurdles. However, what these number don't show that the Peruvian economist Hernando de Soto has shown is that 70-80% of all property and business is not formally protected by legal papers in most of South-America, including Honduras. In essence, the little that exists of economic freedom and market economy exists for the small elite in the country that can afford to handle the legal hurdles in acquiring formal property rights. For the vast majority of the people there is close to ZERO economic freedom.

So while this video identifies a horrible problem it radically fails to identify the CAUSE of that problem, namely bad governance, corruption and hurdles to economic activity. The way these women are treated by the factory owner shows that it is a buyers market for labor, i.e. jobs are in severely short supply. But why is that? In a healthy economy with lots of economic freedom there should be an abundance of businesses competing for workers. Obviously when the ratio of (potential) employees to employers is so high it can only mean one thing: becoming an employer is too hard, too risky and too little rewarding.

Free Trade Zone (FTZ)

Honduras being the largest US investment center in Central America, where 40% of total investment in the manufacturing industry is owned by USA companies, 30% by Honduran companies and 30% by other large foreign Nations. In order for the number of foreign investment to increase, the 1998 law declared Honduras a Free Trade Zone (FTZ) - which allows investors to invest anywhere in the country rather than just in a designated area. The Local manufacturing companies will benefit from being able to import tax free U.S. made yarn, fabrics, and dyes to manufacture and process textile products used in the vertical assembly industry.

No import or export duties for material, equipment or office supplies required by the manufacturing plant, also established for export companies operating in Free Zones:

* Companies are exempt from income, city and county taxes
* 100 percent repatriation of currency is permitted
* Paperwork required to clear incoming or outgoing shipments is minimal
* Import and Export shipments cleared in less than one day with a single entry/exit document (DUA)
* Duty Free Import of all production, machinery, fixtures, spare parts, raw materials, supplies and other equipments,
* Unrestricted Currency exchange

A company that locates in a Free Trade Zane, Industrial Park or Export-Processing Zone (EPZ) can be privately owned and is exempt from payment of import duties on goods and capital equipment, charges, surcharges, selective consumption taxes, and sales taxes. In addition, the production and sale of goods within these areas are exempt from Honduran federal and municipal taxes. Firms operating in these zones are exempt from income tax for 20 years and municipal taxes for 10 years, and there are no controls or restrictions on the use of foreign exchange or the repatriation of capital profits.

Law of Administrative Simplification

The general purpose of this law is to establish a framework to render the government's administrative procedures more straightforward and consistent, in order to guarantee that all government agencies fulfill their duties in compliance with strict standards of economy and promptness and in the spirit of service.

http://www.greenvalleyindustrialpark.com/free_trade_zone.html
 
All these questions are interconnected. If you're truly interested to see part of the answer I recommend to read everything by Hernando de Soto. You can get a taste of his revolutionary work in his video "The Power of the Poor":



The short version is: in most developing countries the law is hostile towards poor people. They are simply not able to cross the bureaucracy barrier and utilize the law as a tool to do business. Hernando de Soto and his team ILD has helped governments all over the world to reform their laws to integrate the extra-legal system of the poor into the law and to reduce the barriers of bureaucracy. Peru, de Soto's own home country, is one of the countries that have implemented de Soto's reforms and the result has been that Peru has had among the highest growth rates in South America, and not only for the rich.

So in summary, I would include the poor in the system, enable them to secure contracts, get an identity that gives them access to the international markets, and enable them to start formal businesses and to formually own their own homes so that they can get credit.


Doesn't that rather beg the question of the primitive accumulation that dispossessed them in the first place?
 
That's very simple: European Jews (Askenazim) are incredibly smart and statistically dramatically overrepresented among the smartest people, and hence you find a lot of Jews in all sorts of intellectually demanding professions: physics, chemistry, chess, mathematics, litterature and yes BUSINESS. Look at New York and Wall Street. Lots of lots of Jews. Look at the oligarchs of Russia today: Jews. Look at the great industrialists of Germany and Austria in the late 19th century: Jews.

You do enjoy giving out sweeping generalisations in place of substantive information, don't you?
While it's true that we Ashkenazim are massively intelligent (we males also have penises that are larger-than-normal-for-Goys), your claims for the industrialists and oligarchs aren't borne out. While we were over-represented in industry in Germany and Austria (as in 19th century Czechoslovakia and France), we were never a majority. As for Russia, it's not even establishable that many of the "Jewish" oligarchs are Jews by blood or even by conversion (although I've no doubt that some of them might be descendants of krymchaks or the like). Religious practice in the Soviet Union often went so far underground that my family in Israel used to joke that a "Russian Jew" was usually someone who'd once passed a deserted synagogue, stopped to look at the architecture and thus had a link with "Jewishness".

Now, for ME, a tolerant classical liberal who know that businessmen produce a lot of wealth for others and that being a successful businessman is very demanding, it is neither any surprise that there are so many rich Jews nor any problem. I am greatful to their role in producing wealth and jobs for the rest of us.

HOWEVER, if you are schooled in the Marxist theory of economics you are trained to view capitalists as PIGS and PARASITES that EXPLOIT the workers. Now, go back to Germany during the time that Hitler was growing up. What did he see and what did he learn about capitalism? Being a good socialist he had learned that capitalists were horrible exploiters, and he also noticed that a whole lot of these captialists were Jews. In fact, for a long time Jew and capitalist were almost synonyms. In German there is an expression called "Judensau" which means "Jew Pig." Today the remnant of that expression is used by socialists in the term "capitalist pig."

Your etymology is as fatuous as your scholarship. A few points:

1) The term "Judensau" was (because it is barely used in the German-speaking world nowadays) generally applied to Jewish women, not to Jews per se. "Jew pig" has always been "Judenschwein".

2) Your relating of Jewishness to capitalism is tenuous, as is your linkage between the expression "Jew pig" and "capitalist pig". may I suggest that such a connection exists only in the heads and hearts of the small minority of people who share your unappetising politics?

So to make a long story short: it is the Marxist theory of economics that lead to Jews being viewed as exploiters, which lead to the great antisemitism of the late 19th and early 20th century in Germany and other places. Thus, Nazism grew very naturally out of a society with a Marxist worldview.

And next. The revelation that Marx wrote an article called "The Jewish Question"!!!
 
A duty is something that you are FORCED to do. Recognition of someone else's right does not require force. You can simply recognize it and then get on with your life. Military service is a duty. You are then FORCED to put your life and your plans on hold and FORCED to go into the military as a soldier. Most types of rights are of the kind that requires a reciprocal duty. A master's right to command his slaves requires reciprocal duty of the slave to obey his master. There is only one exception, namely the right to be independent, to self-ownership. This requires no duty on the part of others. You do not force them to do anything.

As long as you don't mind functioning outwith any of the appurtenances of "the state" or "society", then I'm sure people won't mind you not fulfilling your part of the social compact.

But of course, many of your ilk still expect to suck the state's tit in matters such as subsidised healthcare, even if you've been avoiding paying your taxes, don't you? :)
 
How many normal, decent human beings experiences it as a drudge and a duty NOT to be able to rob their neighbors? Very, very few. Respecting other people's property and lives comes just as naturally to humans as gravity. Most people don't notice that they can't fly and that gravity is constantly pushing them to the ground, and they most certainly do NOT think of it as a duty to walk. Walking is just something we humans do. It's natural. The same is true of respecting others. Now, duty clearly doesn't mean things that come naturally to you. It means doing something despite the fact that you absolutely don't want to, and you only do them because you fear the consequences of not doing them.

To ask such a question, you need to quantify what you mean by "normal" and "decent".
 
As long as you don't mind functioning outwith any of the appurtenances of "the state" or "society", then I'm sure people won't mind you not fulfilling your part of the social compact.

But of course, many of your ilk still expect to suck the state's tit in matters such as subsidised healthcare, even if you've been avoiding paying your taxes, don't you? :)



Same with the twats who won't join the union but never turn down the pay rise or reject improved conditions union members fought for.
 
Which is why I asked the question.

I'll repeat the most important question, as O has ignored it: Who owns the land, and how did they come to own it?

According to the paper you can find at this link, up to the 1950s Honduras was a bogstandard central American banana republic, with a tiny landed elite (the people behind the recent coup) lording it over a mass of impoverished peasants.

The example of the Cuban revolution seemed to offer a way out of this, one which successive Honduran governments tried to avoid via various attempts at land reform. But in spite of these efforts, thon paper avers that:

The Gini coefficient for land distribution deteriorated from 0.7573 in 1952 to 0.7858 in 1993
(Thorpe 2002: 112). In 1952, holdings of 5 hectares or less accounted for 57 percent of all farms,
but controlled only 8.1% of land in agriculture. At the same time, 3 percent of all farms had
holdings in excess of 500 hectares and controlled 28.3 percent of agricultural land. By the time
of the most recent agricultural census in 1993, 71.8 percent of all farms had five hectares or less
and controlled between them 13 percent of agricultural land. Simultaneously, the 1 percent of
farmers who owned 500 hectares or more controlled 12.3 percent of land devoted to agriculture
in 1993. The number of medium size farms and the surface area controlled by them increased
over this period, their growth reflecting an expansion of the agricultural frontier and the
diminution of extremely large farms. The parallel growth in the number of small farms can be
attributed to a population growth that has exceeded the combined effect of agrarian reform land
distributions and inheritance procedures. The more detailed statistical information presented in
Tables IA and IB reflect the trends in Honduran land concentration.

If the concentration of land reflected in Tables IA and IB is an unfortunate reality, the number of
rural poor who own no land is no less striking. Table II reflects the evolution over time of rural
peasant land ownership by families. Of even greater concern, however, is the steady and upward
increase in the number of landless families and those owning less than one hectare.1 In 1952,
families that owned less than one hectare of land accounted for 18 percent of all rural families.

By 1993, they made up 44 percent of the total.
1

Since the 1990s, land policy aspired to the neoliberal goals of enhanced individualisation, regularised land titling and the general spread of market relations and individual private property in land. According to this paper - which comes out of the Land Tenure Centre in Wisconsin, a generally reliable institution results of the Land Titling Project (PTT in its Spanish initials) have been mixed at best.

Within the context of this far-reaching debate, however, at least four general conclusions can be
drawn. First, there is general agreement that the PTT titling effort, in and of itself, is not
sufficient to increase tenure security, access to credit, on-farm investments, or land market
activity in Honduras’ rural smallholder population (Stanfield 1990: 3; López 1995: 32; Wachter
1997: 185; Barham et al. 2002). There is evidence, however, that under some conditions
improving tenure security through the issuance of PTT titles plays a positive role in credit access
and on-farm investments.

Second, the level of participation in land titling programs continues to be low. In 1989, seven
years after the start of the titling programs, only 18 percent of households with less than 5
hectares possessed an INA title in six departments surveyed (Stanfield et al. 1990: 17). In a 1994
follow-up survey in the departments of Santa Barbara and Comayagua, only 56.4 percent of
respondents reported that they had an INA title for at least one parcel of land. Furthermore, for
the highest income group 63 percent owned at least one INA titled parcel, while the two lower
income sectors reported only 54 and 52 percent respectively (López & Romano 1995: 24).

Third, the resiliency of the dualistic system of Honduran land tenure, in which a relatively small
number of landowners controls a large percentage of national lands, limits the effectiveness and
impact of land titling initiatives. There is evidence that the inequitable distribution of agricultural
land has in fact increased in recent years. A panel data set comparing calculations from 1994 and
2001 shows that the Gini coefficient for land concentration increased from 0.71 to 0.76 for land
owned and from 0.71 to 0.75 for land operated (Barham et al. 2001). This trend has left the vast
majority of rural households with limited access to land. As the preceding discussion has pointed
out, there has been evidence of some changes in credit access, land transfers, on-farm
investment, and tenure security, although not to the degree that some theories predicted. It is
reasonable to argue that these disappointing results may be more a function of the entrenched
character of an existing land tenure system than a valid critique of land titling.

Fourth, the combined impact of a broad and complex series of forces at work in Honduras over
the past four decades makes it difficult to assess the effect of a single factor – titling programs –
on either the land market or the titling process itself. Reference has been made in the preceding
pages to the broad complex of influences affecting Honduran land tenure. These include such
disparate forces as the exit of 130,000 Salvadorans after the Soccer War, the precipitous increase
of foreign aid in the 1980s, and complex legislation aimed at tourism, coffee producers and the
environment. To varying degrees, each of these influenced the land tenure system and the
process of land titling. As a result, changes in such things as land transaction costs, frequency of
land transfers, and credit access by the rural poor are difficult to attribute solely to titling
programs.
 
A couple of googles on 'forced contraception honduras' and 'forced contraception third world' only turn up pro-life and conspiracy sites. . . but I wouldn't dismiss these claims on those grounds alone. The site of the 'national labour committee' in that youtube clip looks pretty sound: http://www.globallabourrights.org/

Not dismissing them, I was responding with horror and disbelief.

The clip looked quite unrelated to pro-life propaganda and not about the pro-choice/pro-life debate at all, all that's quite beside the point. Rather it is a hideous example of an atrocity against human free will at the hands of... well, neo-liberalist dictatorship.

Chattel slave masters used to choose whether or not their slaves should reproduce too.

Liberalize the ability of private dictatorships to make choices about peoples lives in order to profit the restless faceless hegemonizing swarms of marauder capital. :(
 
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