The most working-class anarchist group is...

[LLETSA]

Wrong. I want to spread anarchism on a mass level, and every other anarchist I know does too. And less of the patronising "laddie"- don't use it with me or I might be tempted to call you "sonny".

I think that if you read back up the thread you'll find that 'laddie' pales into insignificance in comparison to what I've received. The insults have only come one way. But don't worry about it -I can take whatever is thrown at me on an Internet forum. We're made of stern stuff where I come from.

If what you're saying is the case, how does this square with the fact that the average working class - or none-working class - person has never heard of any anarchist group nor has even the slightest understanding of what anarchism is supposed to stand for?

 

[Herbert Read]

Sounds like a fair enough point. I've lived in seval UK cities over the past 10 years - not Leeds, I grant you - and I've never been aware of anarchist groups unless I hung around lefty bookshops or joined campaigns and found a few working "deep cover" like Herbert.

This isn't a criticism of anarchs (and I'm not sure why everyone is so defensive about what Lletsa says, it's a statement of fact). If you go to Scotland everyone's heard of the SSP. In Oxford they all know about the IWCA. And the SWP, for better or worse, do have a profile. But there is not one anarchist group (again, Leeds may be an exception) in any part of the country I have lived in is on the working class's radar. Why is this?

Im not deep cover all though it sounds kind of mysterious. The thing is anarchists work differently but we dont sell papers or shout at people the evangelical aspect of trots is horrifying. Numbers are small and its difficult to reach a mass audience. LLETSA is making a statemet that anarchists dont do anything in communities the point is we do. Often we are not the best at publicsing it.

 

[LLETSA]

Sad lonely man who cant admit when he wrong!

Is that a crystal ball or a computer screen you're staring at? How would you know who is or isn't sad or lonely? Not that any of it has any bearing on the argument that you're seemingly unable to cope with.

 

[charlie mowbray]

I think that if you read back up the thread you'll find that 'laddie' pales into insignificance in comparison to what I've received. The insults have only come one way. But don't worry about it -I can take whatever is thrown at me on an Internet forum. We're made of stern stuff where I come from.

If what you're saying is the case, how does this square with the fact that the average working class - or none-working class - person has never heard of any anarchist group nor has even the slightest understanding of what anarchism is supposed to stand for?

Because there's only a few of us.This does not mean that we don't do work. Again, I find your logic questionable. As again I ask how many people have heard of the IWCA

 

[Divisive Cotton]

What are you on about laddie?

Where do I say it's a competition? What I said was that the public at large has never heard of anarchism, and that anarchists would seem to prefer it to stay that way. Which would seem to present a few problems for the spreading of anarchist ideas, would it not?

Quite. A case being the Anarchist Federation (formerly Anarchist Communist Federation). When I was involved in the DAM we used to look at this group with puzzlement - they had simply existed for ages but without doing any political work. They had never made contact with the working class, let alone the rest of the left. Miners Strike, AFA... they just stood back and sneered.
Still, keep it ideologically pure, er? They are no better then the Leninists or Trotskyites.
Prediction: Further attacks on the IWCA... attack on DAM.... anything but the self-criticism that is so obviously needed.

 

[LLETSA]

Still dodging your disgrace by rambling on at ludd, go on admit we do things up on my patch, swallow your ego

Nowhere did I say that you do nothing. Stick to what I said if you want to argue.

 

[charlie mowbray]

And you're getting to be as annoying as Justin!!

 

[kropotkin]

Sounds like a fair enough point. I've lived in seval UK cities over the past 10 years - not Leeds, I grant you - and I've never been aware of anarchist groups unless I hung around lefty bookshops or joined campaigns and found a few working "deep cover" like Herbert.

This isn't a criticism of anarchs (and I'm not sure why everyone is so defensive about what Lletsa says, it's a statement of fact). If you go to Scotland everyone's heard of the SSP. In Oxford they all know about the IWCA. And the SWP, for better or worse, do have a profile. But there is not one anarchist group (again, Leeds may be an exception) in any part of the country I have lived in is on the working class's radar. Why is this?

I'm sorry, but contrary to the presence on here of IWCA politicos the people of Oxford have *not* heard of the IWCA. I have quite a few mates there, and when I talked to them about the IWCA none of them had heard of it (and I was trying to convince them to vote for them, as they wouldn't countenance not voting at all).

Anarchists are interested in facilitating and helping build working class self-organisation, helping to create a more militant and confident working class- not recruiting. There are some of us in organisations who are happy to see them grow, but that is not the purpose of the work we do. I for one want the principles of anarchist organisation to become part of mainstream discourse- and it may well be that simply organising along those lines with felow workers or people in your community is the best way to do that.

We are nowhere near a situation where libertarian communism is a possibility, so there is no need to shout it from the rooftops. I'm not ashamed of my anarchism in any way (apart from it's association with twats and eejits), but i'd like to organise as a worker first, "anarchist" second. If that makes sense.

 

[LLETSA]

How can I live with myself?

And you're getting to be as annoying as Justin!!

Really? That's my sleep ruined for tonight then.

 

[Herbert Read]

Is that a crystal ball or a computer screen you're staring at? How would you know who is or isn't sad or lonely? Not that any of it has any bearing on the argument that you're seemingly unable to cope with.

I cant cope, its you who went off and made your self look stupid, i gave you evidence that we are visible and have a profile on my patch. You ignored it and carried on regardless. You are the type of know it all who just will never admit hes wrong.

I dont know who is sad or lonely im making an eduacted and skilled guest from the way you deal with things on these boards.
I dont need a crystal ball i have worked in mental health services for years

 

[charlie mowbray]

THE AF ( ANd before it ACF) did not exist during the Miners Strike. And we've done plenty of anti-fascist work and were heavily involved in Poll Tax work. So get it right!

 

[Divisive Cotton]

THE AF ( ANd before it ACF) did not exist during the Miners Strike. And we've done plenty of anti-fascist work and were heavily involved in Poll Tax work. So get it right!

Yeah, right...
A revision of history
Keep on producing your theoretical magazine...
Which nobody reads... other than yourselves...

 

[LLETSA]

You generalised like a fool. I presented to you waht i was doing in my local area, which is all i can do.

Then you start prattling on about the IWCA, which the public at large do not know about either.

You made broad assumptions that anarchists do nothing in their communities or with working class people, then when provided with the evidence on my patch, stated rambling about people in pubs not nowing owt.

Point being you have being consistently proved wrong.

For the second or third time - I never even mentioned the IWCA until others did.

Could it be an inferiority complex on the part of some of you that the IWCA is so close to the surface of your consciousness?

I neither said what you claim about anarchists - read the thread again - nor am I proved wrong about anything by semi-coherent gibbering on an internet forum.

 

[General Ludd]

Miners Strike, AFA... they just stood back and sneered.

The AF didn't exist during the miner's strike. And AF members definetly have done lots of anti-fascist work.

 

[Herbert Read]

Any Guesses whic urban character this is

 

[Herbert Read]

The only group that the odd one or two working class people have ever heard of is, maybe, Class War and that's mostly for juvenile graffiti making a mess of the occasional wall somewhere. They probably don't associate them with anything called anarchism either.

This fact has a bearing on the subjects of several other threads on this forum, not least the one about Nick Griffin standing in Keighley. There are anarchists who claim that they do all kinds of things to make a difference but they remain completely invisible to the population at large-and seem content to remain so. No working class person will ever know about what they do because they don't publicise it.

OK so you never said anarchists lie about doing things. That they are ignored and are happy to be ignored by people.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

The AF didn't exist during the miner's strike. And AF members definetly have done lots of anti-fascist work.

A simple google search reveals...

'Anarchist Communist Federation have been around since the early-1980s and claim
to be the bearers of a British anarchist-communist tradition dating back to '

 

[hibee]

I'm sorry, but contrary to the presence on here of IWCA politicos the people of Oxford have *not* heard of the IWCA. I have quite a few mates there, and when I talked to them about the IWCA none of them had heard of it (and I was trying to convince them to vote for them, as they wouldn't countenance not voting at all).

Anarchists are interested in facilitating and helping build working class self-organisation, helping to create a more militant and confident working class- not recruiting. There are some of us in organisations who are happy to see them grow, but that is not the purpose of the work we do. I for one want the principles of anarchist organisation to become part of mainstream discourse- and it may well be that simply organising along those lines with felow workers or people in your community is the best way to do that.

We are nowhere near a situation where libertarian communism is a possibility, so there is no need to shout it from the rooftops. I'm not ashamed of my anarchism in any way (apart from it's association with twats and eejits), but i'd like to organise as a worker first, "anarchist" second. If that makes sense.

I can only take your word for it, but my understanding is that in the Oxford estates the IWCA are based in - ie Blackbird Leys and surrounding - they do have a decent profile, at least enough to get them three councillors.

I'm not suggesting you stage Trot-style paper sales but both yourself and Mr Read seem quite reluctant to go out there, as anarchists, and sell anarchism to the people whose support you claim to solicit. I know you reject Leninism (as do I) but I don't see how it is possible to achieve the kind of society you want without making people at least aware of it. because whether you like it or not, most w/c people will associate anarchos, if they'v ever heard of them, with a bunch of crusties smashing up McDonald's on Oxford St. Don't you want to challenge that?

 

[Herbert Read]

I can only take your word for it, but my understanding is that in the Oxford estates the IWCA are based in - ie Blackbird Leys and surrounding - they do have a decent profile, at least enough to get them three councillors.

I'm not suggesting you stage Trot-style paper sales but both yourself and Mr Read seem quite reluctant to go out there, as anarchists, and sell anarchism to the people whose support you claim to solicit. I know you reject Leninism (as do I) but I don't see how it is possible to achieve the kind of society you want without making people at least aware of it. because whether you like it or not, most w/c people will associate anarchos, if they'v ever heard of them, with a bunch of crusties smashing up McDonald's on Oxford St. Don't you want to challenge that?

I like The Mr Read bit. I do give anarchist bulletins out in my union and at work. Point is it can get you pretty marginalised thanks to the tainted view of anarchists and lies spread by socialists such as LLETSA

 

[charlie mowbray]

Yeah, right...
A revision of history
Keep on producing your theoretical magazine...
Which nobody reads... other than yourselves...

As the ACF was founded in 1986 , it couldn't have existed during the Miners Strike, could it ( as an individual I worked with the Kent Miners Support Committe and did a lot of solidarity work around the strike) So no revision of history. You're just making yourself look like an idiot, by the way.

 

[ernestolynch]

I'd bet that more people in London have heard of the IWCA and are aware of its aims than the Anarchist Federation or Class War.

 

[ernestolynch]

. Point is it can get you pretty marginalised thanks to the tainted view of anarchists and lies spread by socialists such as LLETSA

You're sounding like some old Stalinist banging on about CIA lies and propaganda now!

 

[Herbert Read]

I'd bet that more people in London have heard of the IWCA and are aware of its aims than the Anarchist Federation or Class War.

Not the point ERN LLETSA was claiming that we do nothing and are content with doing nothing.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/leedsbradford/

I pointed this out to him not to mention my union work and he still persisted in lying.

Well they did stand in elections

 

[charlie mowbray]

A simple google search reveals...

'Anarchist Communist Federation have been around since the early-1980s and claim
to be the bearers of a British anarchist-communist tradition dating back to '

Please get youtr facts straight. I repeat, the ACF was founded in 1986. I should know, I was one of its founders.

 

[Herbert Read]

You're sounding like some old Stalinist banging on about CIA lies and propaganda now!

Im talking from experience within my branch numb nuts

Any way wasnt youre dad Mccarthy

 

[hibee]

I like The Mr Read bit. I do give anarchist bulletins out in my union and at work. Point is it can get you pretty marginalised thanks to the tainted view of anarchists and lies spread by socialists such as LLETSA

Good for you, but I've never seen that elsewhere from anarchos and your pal Kropotkin says he's not interested in recruiting. Maybe rather than slagging off someone who came on here and made a perfectly reasonable you can explain why the socialists you detest have a far higher profile than you? Maybe it's not just their "lies" that are to blame, but the political strategy of your comrades?

 

[General Ludd]

divisive cotton has gone all quite suddenly. what a suprise.

 

[LLETSA]

My problem with your posts on the last page or so is that you would have attacked if anarchists did the opposite- you would have said "shouty anarchists getting involved in community politics purely to recruit to their groups" or something similar.

It rather cheapens your point when it is obvious that the attacks come first, the evidence for them second. You don't actually care, and to be honest you behave more like a Lenninist than you know (as does your "IWCA or nothing" comrade Joe Reilly).

You're just making assumptions about what I'd say "if..." (the fash on RA used to do this with their 'you probably think....')

My original point was something you can't really provide evidence for. But you don't need evidence posting up here - try asking around and then decide if what I said is true or not:

I'm not just sniping at anarchists....The fact is that for all but a negligible number of working class people -and middle class people for that matter-anarchism is unheard of.

The only group that the odd one or two working class people have ever heard of is, maybe, Class War and that's mostly for juvenile graffiti making a mess of the occasional wall somewhere. They probably don't associate them with anything called anarchism either.

This fact has a bearing on the subjects of several other threads on this forum, not least the one about Nick Griffin standing in Keighley. There are anarchists who claim that they do all kinds of things to make a difference but they remain completely invisible to the population at large-and seem content to remain so. No working class person will ever know about what they do because they don't publicise it.

Perhaps it is because, like lefties and the far right, most anarchists seldom mix with people who don't sympathise with their views (to some extent at least), that they have a distorted picture with regard to their influence?

 

[Herbert Read]

Good for you, but I've never seen that elsewhere from anarchos and your pal Kropotkin says he's not interested in recruiting. Maybe rather than slagging off someone who came on here and made a perfectly reasonable you can explain why the socialists you detest have a far higher profile than you? Maybe it's not just their "lies" that are to blame, but the political strategy of your comrades?

Perhaps we can be our own worst enemy. The point is we do try and for LLETSA to talk shit at me is just annoying

 

[charlie mowbray]

At Divisive Cotton)
As the DAM is now the Solidarity Federation, that can't happen. And we get on fine with Solfed comrades.
10 Get up to date
20 Get your facts right
30 Quit the sectarian ( and inaccurate) sniping