The most working-class anarchist group is...

[oisleep]

you arguing with yourself now ludd!

 

[rednblack]

How many read it, rather than trash it like they do most political leaflets they get through the letter box and how many remeber its name, and more importantly what it stands for- this is not knocking the IWCA but looking at the facts

well i can't speak for the iwca - but having done surveys door to door with hackney independent - i can say that most people i have spoken to when asked if they get and read the newsletter - say yes and yes - obviously some are just saying so out of politeness but plenty seem to be aware of the issues on which HI campaigns

 

[ernestolynch]

you arguing with yourself now ludd![/QUOTE

Splitter!

 

[oisleep]

no swallower!

editops misread

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Bitter little man, aren't you? If you could get over the inaccuracies and the sectarianism, you might ask what has DAM/Solfed achieved since its foundation. This is is not knocking the Solfed, just to point out that no group in British anarchism has particularly grown in this period.
Thankfully, people in Solfed are a bit less sectarian in the main than they were in your day.

So why's that then? Have you ever asked yourself that? Have you ever really sat down and and answered the question - 'What are we doing wrong?'

 

[hibee]

That's not what I said.

I write for an explicitly anarchist newsletter that I help distribute, and have written for Freedom- an explicitly anarchist paper, so I do "prosletise". What I was trying to say was that the purpose of anarchist groups was not to recruit, as we don't see ourselves "leading the revolution".

You prosletise but don't recruit? In other words, you're not interested in winning the public over to active anarchism? Sounds like a leadership role being taken by your lot...

 

[charlie mowbray]

well i can't speak for the iwca - but having done surveys door to door with hackney independent - i can say that most people i have spoken to when asked if they get and read the newsletter - say yes and yes - obviously some are just saying so out of politeness but plenty seem to be aware of the issues on which HI campaigns

Yes, in Hackney. I granted that, I was talkingg about London as a whole

 

[kropotkin]

Yes, it is hibee, that is exactly what my position, and the position of the AF is. Well done. Well done.

 

[rednblack]

You prosletise but don't recruit? In other words, you're not interested in winning the public over to active anarchism? Sounds like a leadership role being taken by your lot...

no - he means that we want to see working class people won to the methods of anarchism - but we don't care if they join "our" particular organisation

 

[charlie mowbray]

So why's that then? Have you ever asked yourself that? Have you ever really sat down and and answered the question - 'What are we doing wrong?'

Yes, I have and there's no quick or simple solution. It's a matter of hard, dogged work

 

[Donna Ferentes]

In other words, you're not interested in winning the public over to active anarchism? Sounds like a leadership role being taken by your lot...

I have to say I don't see how the first sentence relates to the second.

 

[rednblack]

Yes, in Hackney. I granted that, I was talkingg about London as a whole

yes - i suspect you are right then

 

[Fozzie Bear]

99.9% of people have never heard of the iwca - in fact i reckon not even all the regulars in hackney independent's local know what they stand for entirely

They might not know what Hackney Independent is about entirely but I would say that most of them would have heard of us (or know the people involved) at the very least.

Certainly when we've done surveys and asked people if they read the newsletter - a surprising number of people do. I was talking to someone about ASBOs the other day and he misheard me and went into this great rant about ALMOs - because he'd been reading our stuff. That's just one example of many.

i havent seen letsa claim the iwca are well known - and indeed i think his point would still stand.

I agree. Perhaps there is some general point to be made about how to spread political ideas without being shouty-trot OR reacting against that so much that you shy away from telling people about your beliefs. (And before anybody jumps in, I'm not pretending that Hackney Independent, or anybody has got it exactly right at the moment.)

 

[hibee]

no - he means that we want to see working class people won to the methods of anarchism - but we don't care if they join "our" particular organisation

Cheers - that's one of the first straight answers I've had on these boards.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Yes, I have and there's no quick or simple solution. It's a matter of hard, dogged work

Indeed it is. Don't think I'm having a go (I'm not!) but how do you evaluate whether or not your approach is working?

Like I say, I don't think running in elections is 100% wonderful, but it does mean that you get some sort of feedback on what you're doing every few years.

 

[rednblack]

They might not know what Hackney Independent is about entirely but I would say that most of them would have heard of us (or know the people involved) at the very least.

Certainly when we've done surveys and asked people if they read the newsletter - a surprising number of people do. I was talking to someone about ASBOs the other day and he misheard me and went into this great rant about ALMOs - because he'd been reading our stuff. That's just one example of many.

as i said in a later post - i have no doubt of any of that

anyway this thread is funny - all the trots will be gloating over it and going on about iwca/hi vs anarchos without realising that one AF member has actually gone out leafleting with HI - and that various anarchos are involved with HI as well

 

[General Ludd]

Like I say, I don't think running in elections is 100% wonderful, but it does mean that you get some sort of feedback on what you're doing every few years

But if anarchists ran in elections the more votes they got the worse they'd have done because it'd be clear that those voting for them didn't agree with the anarchist principle of not voting (if it may be described as such) so getting no votes would be perfect outcome.

(not a serious answer if you hadn't noticed)

 

[Fozzie Bear]

(not a serious answer if you hadn't noticed)

Very good, but I would like a serious answer if anyone has one!

 

[kropotkin]

Indeed it is. Don't think I'm having a go (I'm not!) but how do you evaluate whether or not your approach is working?

Like I say, I don't think running in elections is 100% wonderful, but it does mean that you get some sort of feedback on what you're doing every few years.

Well we (the AF) are geographically sparse- there are less than 100 people in our org, with the maximum being about 20 (?) in any one place (London). Consequently we, as a group, are unable to do proper community activism under our banner like you are doing. The upshot is involvement in local groups, or getting enough AF people in one place to set up a local AF group (there have been quite afew of these now, some of which have maintained a presence and still do good stuff).

So we function mainly as a propaganda group, with members doing lots of different activity in their locals- from antifascist work, trade union work, campaigning etc.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Well we (the AF) are geographically sparse- there are less than 100 people in our org, with the maximum being about 20 (?) in any one place (London). Consequently we, as a group, are unable to do proper community activism under our banner like you are doing. The upshot is involvement in local groups, or getting enough AF people in one place to set up a local AF group (there have been quite afew of these now, some of which have maintained a presence and still do good stuff).

So we function mainly as a propaganda group, with members doing lots of different activity in their locals- from antifascist work, trade union work, campaigning etc.

Yeah, ok, but how do you evaluate whether or not your approach is working?

 

[kropotkin]

The approach of getting enough people together to start local groups?
Well, I suppose whether you have local groups starting! We do, but it is a very slow process. Those local groups- much like WAG and HSG- must deal with important issues in order to continue.

But at the end of the day, there is little anyone can do to compensate for the low level of social struggle in a wider context.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

The approach of getting enough people together to start local groups?
Well, I suppose whether you have local groups starting! We do, but it is a very slow process. Those local groups- like WAG and HSG- must deal with important issues in order to continue

No what I mean is the aims and objectives of the AF.

How do you know if the tactics you are currently using are bringing you closer to your objectives?

 

[kropotkin]

Well, I wrote a bit above on what I see as the objectives of the anarchist movement as a whole, not just my group. If you are a revolutionary, you have to be involved in activity that helps bring a revolutionary change of society about.

The only way that that is goign to happen is if the self-confidence and self-organising tendencies of the working class are bolstered. Local community groups and workplace organisation are the best ways of fostering these traits, so an organisation must be involved in them. This we do, although as I pointed out above, necessarily as individuals rather than as an organisation as a whole.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Well, I wrote a bit above on what I see as the objectives of the anarchist movement as a whole, not just my group. If you are a revolutionary, you have to be involved in activity that helps bring a revolutionary change of society about.

The only way that that is goign to happen is if the self-confidence and self-organising tendencies of the working class are bolstered. Local community groups and workplace organisation are the best ways of fostering these traits, so an organisation must be involved in them. This we do, although as I pointed out above, necessarily as individuals rather than as an organisation as a whole.

I'm probably not very good at expressing myself or something, but it seems to me that you keep telling me what you do, and I keep asking you how do you know if it's working?

 

[kropotkin]

Sorry, I'm sure you're expressing yourself perfectly and I'm just not responding properly. I'm not sure whether it is possible when our organisation is so small to be able to see direct links between our activity and results, beyond new branches setting up and getting involved in community campaigns in their areas.

 

[ernestolynch]

Sorry, I'm sure you're expressing yourself perfectly and I'm just not responding properly. I'm not sure whether it is possible when our organisation is so small to be able to see direct links between our activity and results, beyond new branches setting up and getting involved in community campaigns in their areas.

Recruitment kinda thing?

 

[charlie mowbray]

The AF is a membership organisation, and yes we do welcome new members. But we are not obsessed with recruiting like many Trot groups, although growth is to a certain extent sign of success. We are primarily interested in developing the self-activity of the class, both in the workplace and the neighbourhood.Obviously at the moment that seems like an unrewarding task, but when was it that easy for revolutionaries, except in times of heightened class struggle?

 

[kropotkin]

I'm going to go out on a limb and take you seriously (for one post, and one post only)

I was asked how the AF, as an organisation, can assess it's impact- and as the impact is supposed to be helping make anarchist ideas more commonplace and less weird- it is very difficult to isolate increases in working class struggle and trace them back to the efforts of our organisation. A proxy for the growth of people calling themselves class struggler anarchists might be the size of our organisation- as long as we weren't doing things too badly you would expect the size of the AF to ebb and flow roughly with the interest in anarchist ideas- thus my comment above.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Sorry, I'm sure you're expressing yourself perfectly and I'm just not responding properly. I'm not sure whether it is possible when our organisation is so small to be able to see direct links between our activity and results, beyond new branches setting up and getting involved in community campaigns in their areas.

OK, fair enough!

I think that might worry me, tho.

 

[ernestolynch]

The AF is a membership organisation, and yes we do welcome new members. But we are not obsessed with recruiting like many Trot groups, although growth is to a certain extent sign of success. We are primarily interested in developing the self-activity of the class, both in the workplace and the neighbourhood.Obviously at the moment that seems like an unrewarding task, but when was it that easy for revolutionaries, except in times of heightened class struggle?

Sounds pretty exclusive and dare I say it - vanguardist. Don't call us, we'll call you, if we reckon you've read enough books about dead Ukrainians.