The most working-class anarchist group is...

[The Black Hand]

You must mix with a vastly different kind of over-thirty than I do.

The hard fact is that even the tiny numbers who have heard of CW have only a negative impression of it (not entirely the fault of CW I admit but contributed to by its fundamental misunderstanding of what the average working class person is like.)

And when did this turn into an IWCA v anarchism issue? I never even mentioned the IWCA in my original post. But as you're determined to keep on about them then it's worth repeating that should the IWCA expand into more places then more people will begin to hear of it - for the precise reason that it publicises itself and what it does.

Yawn. Wot a waste of time arguing with Letsa... You're not really interested in debate, you have a record that I have heard so many boring times before... As for saying 'Class War are not well known' thats a laugh, there have been many many Tv appearances, including news, documentary and current affairs...

Class War was never a unified whole, and this grates ex-Leninists and ultra platformist anarchists. The fact is many tendencies mentioned in the autumn issue of Organise '04 (see, somebody reads it) was a strength rather than a weakness... Plus, Class War were and are authentically 'popular', and this grates many too. Over the years Class War material spread itself cos it was that good. People wanted to spread it around rather than saw it as a duty, and to those lay people who got hold of it too, they spread it with gusto in many an instance.

Another example of this was about 2 weeks ago when I woz on a birthday drink with approx a dozen people, I whipped out a deck of stickers and they were read and spread around... Everybody liked them, 95% were Class War latest ones, and the rest were the 'Starbucks Fuck off' ones... Now, i can hear the cries about that is not 'authentic political activity and class struggle', but class consciousness is a cultural process far larger and no group has a copyright on it. Class propaganda Class War.

Also, if you want evidence of Class War activity try www.minersadvice.co.uk

 

[pilchardman]

Yawn.

You shouldn't yawn; you should sigh, Attica.

 

[catch]

Monte, the second half of that post was the most sensible thing I've seen of yours, but as has already been pointed out it doesn't square well with much else you've written on here. And the first bit, well I'll just leave that as it is, for another thread I think.

With the honourable exception of N who helps out with the Hackney Independent....

That's a bit better.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Yawn. Wot a waste of time arguing with Letsa... You're not really interested in debate, you have a record that I have heard so many boring times before... As for saying 'Class War are not well known' thats a laugh, there have been many many Tv appearances, including news, documentary and current affairs...

Class War was never a unified whole, and this grates ex-Leninists and ultra platformist anarchists. The fact is many tendencies mentioned in the autumn issue of Organise '04 (see, somebody reads it) was a strength rather than a weakness... Plus, Class War were and are authentically 'popular', and this grates many too. Over the years Class War material spread itself cos it was that good. People wanted to spread it around rather than saw it as a duty, and to those lay people who got hold of it too, they spread it with gusto in many an instance.

Another example of this was about 2 weeks ago when I woz on a birthday drink with approx a dozen people, I whipped out a deck of stickers and they were read and spread around... Everybody liked them, 95% were Class War latest ones, and the rest were the 'Starbucks Fuck off' ones... Now, i can hear the cries about that is not 'authentic political activity and class struggle', but class consciousness is a cultural process far larger and no group has a copyright on it. Class propaganda Class War.

Also, if you want evidence of Class War activity try www.minersadvice.co.uk

To be fair I think there was a fifteen minute period time when the 'label' Class War was well known but that was around being blamed for the Poll Tax riot.That fifteen minutes is up now .

By the way , I can sympathise with those who might cry that giving out some stickers at someones birthday party is not 'authentic political activity and class struggle'.

 

[scumbalina]

I don't even need to read this thread to know that Norwich Anarchists have no competition as the group with the highest percentage of working class toe rags. We're street.

 

[LLETSA]

Yawn. Wot a waste of time arguing with Letsa... You're not really interested in debate, you have a record that I have heard so many boring times before... As for saying 'Class War are not well known' thats a laugh, there have been many many Tv appearances, including news, documentary and current affairs...

Class War was never a unified whole, and this grates ex-Leninists and ultra platformist anarchists. The fact is many tendencies mentioned in the autumn issue of Organise '04 (see, somebody reads it) was a strength rather than a weakness... Plus, Class War were and are authentically 'popular', and this grates many too. Over the years Class War material spread itself cos it was that good. People wanted to spread it around rather than saw it as a duty, and to those lay people who got hold of it too, they spread it with gusto in many an instance.

Another example of this was about 2 weeks ago when I woz on a birthday drink with approx a dozen people, I whipped out a deck of stickers and they were read and spread around... Everybody liked them, 95% were Class War latest ones, and the rest were the 'Starbucks Fuck off' ones... Now, i can hear the cries about that is not 'authentic political activity and class struggle', but class consciousness is a cultural process far larger and no group has a copyright on it. Class propaganda Class War.

Also, if you want evidence of Class War activity try www.minersadvice.co.uk

Many TV appearances? And so? The same could be said for Les Dennis. I think you'd find that those TV appearances confirmed you in the eyes of the audience as what you were already perceived as (through your own efforts) by the tiny numbers who already knew of you - a novelty act.

In my experience the small number of people who ever came across it (to them Class War was merely stickers on a lamp post or graffiti on a wall) thought that Class War material was sometimes funny, and compared to the po-faced left it probably was. Nobody outside your own circle ever took it seriously as any kind of guide to action, however.

The whole approach Class War used to take towards the working class was fundamentally patronising (this was to some extent true of most anarchist groups I used to come across). To assume that most working people share your carefully cultivated 'rebel' poses and took seriously the juvenile 'fuck this, fuck that, fuck the other' tone of your propaganda can be described as nothing else.

'Starbucks Fuck Off'? Is that the sound of empires tumbling? Oh no, it's just next door putting the bin out.

Do you think working people are fucking daft or what?

 

[LLETSA]

I like The Mr Read bit. I do give anarchist bulletins out in my union and at work. Point is it can get you pretty marginalised thanks to the tainted view of anarchists and lies spread by socialists such as LLETSA

Far from lying about you I can't remember a single time I have discussed anarchism with anybody I know for the last ten or fifteen years.

Funnily enough, the subject never seems to come up.

 

[888]

They had never made contact with the working class, let alone the rest of the left. Miners Strike, AFA... they just stood back and sneered.

The ACF didn't exist during the miner's strike and many members were involved with AFA so you're talking total shite.

 

[haggy]

i've just read thru this thread and I'm lost about what is being discussed.

what is important to me and lletsa, rnb, fozzie, div cotton, catch, etc (sorry if i've missed you out) is not just activity in w/c areas, but building sustainable networks and assessing just how well we are doing. HI and IWCA are not just 'propaganda' orgs. chucking your seed on the ground and then walking away w/out knowing what sort of impact you have had is pointless, imo.

in HI and IWCA, newsletters are followed up wiv surveys, followed up wiv sustainable contact - thru social activity, campaigning on local issues like ALMO, stock transfer, anti-social behaviour, keeping in touch with interested tenant activists/leaders, just being known as local activists when we're in the street/pubs... this does not involve 'recruitment' or an expectation that people will get involved on a full-time level (trots have lost morale on this issue, partly cos their politics are shite but also cos they jump all over the place and assume that everyone they meet who's against 'the war', or whatever, is also gonna be keen on all the other stuff they push).

Let's face it - and not kid ourselves - entrenching 'politics' of any kind in w/c communities involves long-term work and being able to adapt to local conditions. this, in turn, means thinking about how best to engage. ideological baggage, of the dogmatic kind - if you ain't prepared to listen and reconsider - is the utmost sectarianism. it does not mean kowtowing to the lowest common denominator, but thinking hard and arguing amongst your selves and wiv your closest sympathisers about how to address certain issues, whether it be ASB, stock transfer or race issues or whatever. preconceived moral positions may comfort you if you get the elbow from people, but they won't advance you one iota.

i don't know enuff about the @ groups that have been criticised (and fwiw i guess class war is still better known, for all the 'wrong' reasons, than any other @ group), but from my own pov, if i wasn't anally interested in the minutae of 'left' politics, i wouldn't know any of them. At least, Hi and IWCA can claim that in the areas it has worked for the last few years - and it ain't all rosy, of course, - we have built up a profile thru sheer determination and hard work. this may be true of @ groups elsewhere (someone mentioned Leeds), and good on 'em, but have they accomplished this thru a puritan '@' politics or by just getting stuck in as local activists who could have done as well w/out the @ label?

 

[Herbert Read]

Far from lying about you I can't remember a single time I have discussed anarchism with anybody I know for the last ten or fifteen years.

Funnily enough, the subject never seems to come up.

You must have a small circle of friends politically. Then again that is not suprising

 

[charlie mowbray]

Yeah, right...
A revision of history
Keep on producing your theoretical magazine...
Which nobody reads... other than yourselves...

I've figured out that you were 9-10 years old during Miners Strike of 84-85 and that you left DAM at the ripe old age of 19 ( if your birthyear given in your profile is correct)So all in all you probably spent 3 years at the most in DAM and have no real knowledge of what happened in the Miners Strike and its aftermath.
Sure we produce a theoretical and it's widely respected and articles from it are translated and reproduced right round the world. Solfed themselves launched a theoetical -Direct Action- with a remarkable similarity to Organise! in format and content. Are you one of those British activists totally against the development of theory, always a chronic weakness?
And anyway we produce and distribute a monthly (without fail) free newsheet that has a wide circulation.
When you were in DAM did you actually meet any members of ACF/AF or were you relying on second-hand impressions from other DAM members. Like I said, relations between the Solfed and AF are far more cordial than in your day. What is your problem? You're the one that seems ideologically enslaved with your inaccurate prejudices formed over ten years ago.
And yes mate, I was down at Wapping. I was there regularly, OK?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I've figured out that you were 9-10 years old during Miners Strike of 84-85 and that you left DAM at the ripe old age of 19 ( if your birthyear given in your profile is correct)So all in all you probably spent 3 years at the most in DAM and have no real knowledge of what happened in the Miners Strike and its aftermath.
Sure we produce a theoretical and it's widely respected and articles from it are translated and reproduced right round the world. Solfed themselves launched a theoetical -Direct Action- with a remarkable similarity to Organise! in format and content. Are you one of those British activists totally against the development of theory, always a chronic weakness?
And anyway we produce and distribute a monthly (without fail) free newsheet that has a wide circulation.
When you were in DAM did you actually meet any members of ACF/AF or were you relying on second-hand impressions from other DAM members. Like I said, relations between the Solfed and AF are far more cordial than in your day. What is your problem? You're the one that seems ideologically enslaved with your inaccurate prejudices formed over ten years ago.
And yes mate, I was down at Wapping. I was there regularly, OK?

Fucking hell, it's Mrs Marple..

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Fucking hell, it's Mrs Marple..

Is that Miss Marple's mum?

Cheers - Louis Mac

 

[kropotkin]

Fucking hell, it's Mrs Marple..

Well, you have quite hysterically attacked him, and every single leg of your argument for it has been kicked away- without an apology issuing from you. Hardly takes Miss Marple, does it?

 

[charlie mowbray]

Yeah, you've been sussed. It was you who killed Colonel Mustard with a poker in the library.
"All right guv, it's a fair cop. But don't tell the missus, it'll kill her. Who was it who grassed? Was it Fingers? So help me, I'll swing for him etc etc etc etc"

 

[Herbert Read]

Is LLETSA on still talking junk?

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Far from lying about you I can't remember a single time I have discussed anarchism with anybody I know for the last ten or fifteen years.

Funnily enough, the subject never seems to come up.

And having been involved with the left since the mid 70s I have only remember discussing anarchism when I first was interested in politics and from then on only when I have met the occassional anarchist involved in a campaign.Whilst I have been involved in the usual arguements at work or in pubs or in the community about whether socialism goes against human nature, or whether socialism would work or about whether Russia was socialist etc I can honestly say I have never participated in the same re anarchism.

Perhaps it is a question of invisibility but I think it is more to do with the lack of coherency about anarchism and therefore its outcomes. No doubt anarchists might find that lack of coherency liberating, and compared to the dull mechanism of the Trot and Lenninist Left one can see the attraction to escape, but liberated into where or what?

There are some posters on here who promote forms of anarchist activity that I do think is pro working class and community based but they are often surrounded in a sea of others advocating shoplifting,riots, free and autonomous spaces for parties, building tree houses and juggling.

I think it is a valid question to ask how those that are serious about a fundemental change for the working class can liberate themselves from such unwanted baggage and become not just a topic of conversation but part of a dialogue within working class communities.

 

[charlie mowbray]

And exactly how many anarchists on here are if I can put it that way, Jugglists. Sweet Fuck All I should imagine.
Yeah, anarchism needs to break with all of that bollox but I've been arguing that since the 60s and any other serious anarchist has too. You could as equally apply the same criticismsto socialists. How can revolutionary socialists distinguish themselves from Tankies or New Labour?
Haggy:"but have they accomplished this thru a puritan '@' politics or by just getting stuck in as local activists who could have done as well w/out the @ label?"
So if they can do just as well why drop the anarchist politics? I think it's dishonest to hide your politics, and I'd be a liar if I became a closet anarchist. I'm totally in favour of activity in the neighbourhoods (don't like community too much as a term) but why hide it under a vague populist cloak? That seems to me more symptomatic of the defeats our class has weathered over the last 20 years than anything else.

 

[Herbert Read]

And having been involved with the left since the mid 70s I have only remember discussing anarchism when I first was interested in politics and from then on only when I have met the occassional anarchist involved in a campaign.Whilst I have been involved in the usual arguements at work or in pubs or in the community about whether socialism goes against human nature, or whether socialism would work or about whether Russia was socialist etc I can honestly say I have never participated in the same re anarchism.

Perhaps it is a question of invisibility but I think it is more to do with the lack of coherency about anarchism and therefore its outcomes. No doubt anarchists might find that lack of coherency liberating, and compared to the dull mechanism of the Trot and Lenninist Left one can see the attraction to escape, but liberated into where or what?

There are some posters on here who promote forms of anarchist activity that I do think is pro working class and community based but they are often surrounded in a sea of others advocating shoplifting,riots, free and autonomous spaces for parties, building tree houses and juggling.

I think it is a valid question to ask how those that are serious about a fundemental change for the working class can liberate themselves from such unwanted baggage and become not just a topic of conversation but part of a dialogue within working class communities.

Well as i was pointing out yesterday to LLETSA this was something i am involved with doing accross my city with different communities in creating a space where dialogue can be created that is autonomous socail centre. I hope to get my trade union colleagues down to it to use it as a space to discuss foth coming poossibility of action in public sector.

Point being im sick of this style of generalised argument that anarchists do not work in communities and are happy to go unknown. This annoys me as i devote a lot of time to this type of work, you can understand how this gets my goat.

I want people to know anout anarchism but i dont push it on people i use rational debate face to face and try to show by working within larger groups in a constructive manner. I
ts a shame you have not had debates about anarchism and if you ever in leeds you are welcome to come down the socail centre for a pint and im more than happy to have a chat with you!

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Well as i was pointing out yesterday to LLETSA this was something i am involved with doing accross my city with different communities in creating a space where dialogue can be created that is autonomous socail centre. I hope to get my trade union colleagues down to it to use it as a space to discuss foth coming poossibility of action in public sector.

Point being im sick of this style of generalised argument that anarchists do not work in communities and are happy to go unknown. This annoys me as i devote a lot of time to this type of work, you can understand how this gets my goat.

I want people to know anout anarchism but i dont push it on people i use rational debate face to face and try to show by working within larger groups in a constructive manner. I
ts a shame you have not had debates about anarchism and if you ever in leeds you are welcome to come down the socail centre for a pint and im more than happy to have a chat with you!

Thanks Herb and if I am in Leeds I will pm and take you up on this but the point I was trying to make is that despite your efforts discussions about anarchism are confined to anarchist circles and between individual on the left and individual anarchists, like this very valuable board.

Ps I will order some crisps but don't start helping yourself once I nip into the toilets!

 

[Chuck Wilson]

And exactly how many anarchists on here are if I can put it that way, Jugglists. Sweet Fuck All I should imagine.
Yeah, anarchism needs to break with all of that bollox but I've been arguing that since the 60s and any other serious anarchist has too. You could as equally apply the same criticismsto socialists. How can revolutionary socialists distinguish themselves from Tankies or New Labour?
Haggy:"but have they accomplished this thru a puritan '@' politics or by just getting stuck in as local activists who could have done as well w/out the @ label?"
So if they can do just as well why drop the anarchist politics? I think it's dishonest to hide your politics, and I'd be a liar if I became a closet anarchist. I'm totally in favour of activity in the neighbourhoods (don't like community too much as a term) but why hide it under a vague populist cloak? That seems to me more symptomatic of the defeats our class has weathered over the last 20 years than anything else.

Charlie you have probably been as embarassed as anyone else with some of contributions on these boards from so called anarchists, they are as cringe worthy as some of the simplistic sloganising that we get from some Trots. I had a remarkable exchange with one anarchist about 'autonomous spaces' which turned out that he wanted to build a tree house den so him and his student mates could play house' And yes I have no illusions in the ever decreasing circle of Trots sects who whilst trying to portray themselves as the memmory of the class end up as the equivalent of revolutionary train spotters.

 

[Herbert Read]

Thanks Herb and if I am in Leeds I will pm and take you up on this but the point I was trying to make is that despite your efforts discussions about anarchism are confined to anarchist circles and between individual on the left and individual anarchists, like this very valuable board.

Ps I will order some crisps but don't start helping yourself once I nip into the toilets!

Biscuits chuck thats all i care about unless its walker sensations.

I have had to cut down on libeartion shopping

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I’ve calmed down since yesterday, but I was so fucking enraged with the defensive self-righteousness of some of the anarchists posting on here to LLETSA's points, that I reacted to it – Catch, rightly, pointed out another side.

I worked with and known enough anarchists in the past to know that only some are cocks.

Gotta move forward people....

 

[charlie mowbray]

'Spose that's the closest we'll get to an apology from you then

 

[Pickman's model]

Gotta move forward people....

Britain Forward Not Back

are the two related?

 

[Herbert Read]

I’ve calmed down since yesterday, but I was so fucking enraged with the defensive self-righteousness of some of the anarchists posting on here to LLETSA's points, that I reacted to it – Catch, rightly, pointed out another side.

I worked with and known enough anarchists in the past to know that only some are cocks.

Gotta move forward people....

I may be on the defensive but its kind of natural when you are putting in ground work and people steam roller it!

 

[Pickman's model]

 

[Herbert Read]

Same tou with brass knobs on it

 

[charlie mowbray]

Ah- Serge Forward - ex-anarchist, Bolshevik turned oppositionist, unshaven chain-smoking singer song-writer and dirty old man

 

[Pickman's model]

Same tou with brass knobs on it

it was meant to be to that divisive cotton, but then you leapt in with yr ILL-TIMED post.