The end of the 6 week Summer Holiday?

[mr steev]

Fair enough. But I don't agree

As I said, I think more needs to be done to provide facilities for kids/clubs/childcare etc, but I don't agree that the holidays should be cut because some parents find looking after their kids for 6 weeks a struggle

 

[Lo Siento.]

Fair enough. But I don't agree

As I said, I think more needs to be done to provide facilities for kids/clubs/childcare etc, but I don't agree that the holidays should be cut because some parents find looking after their kids for 6 weeks a struggle

teachers are educators, not child care. That shouldn't even enter into it.

Diminishing number of reasons to be a teacher these days - a shit load of hassle, paperwork, constant inspection stress, long unpaid hours, performance related pay, for profit schools on there way, stressful classes with big numbers, longer hours on their way, mediocre pay...

And now they want the holidays.

 

[Thora]

Fair enough. But I don't agree

As I said, I think more needs to be done to provide facilities for kids/clubs/childcare etc, but I don't agree that the holidays should be cut because some parents find looking after their kids for 6 weeks a struggle

I'd not saying holidays should be cut, just rearranged.

It's fine to say school isn't childcare - but it is, it's childcare and respite for a lot of parents.

 

[mr steev]

I'd not saying holidays should be cut, just rearranged.

It's shortening the 6 week break though, so that's cutting it. I don't think it needs altering
I'm still not quite sure what Gove's actual reason for shortening it is?

 

[Lo Siento.]

It's fine to say school isn't childcare - but it is, it's childcare and respite for a lot of parents.

The fact that school happens to relieve parents of their children doesn't mean that it is the obligation of the education system to look after your kids.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

I don't agree that the holidays should be cut because some parents find looking after their kids for 6 weeks a struggle

It's shortening the 6 week break though, so that's cutting it.

No-one here is arguing for reducing the total number of school holidays. The argument for those in favour of reducing the 6 week summer break is to compensate by extending other holidays by the amount of that reduction.

 

[likesfish]

teachers are educators, not child care. That shouldn't even enter into it.

Diminishing number of reasons to be a teacher these days - a shit load of hassle, paperwork, constant inspection stress, long unpaid hours, performance related pay, for profit schools on there way, stressful classes with big numbers, longer hours on their way, mediocre pay...

And now they want the holidays.

Although you can pick up a hot 15 year old

Too soon?

 

[purenarcotic]

It's shortening the 6 week break though, so that's cutting it. I don't think it needs altering
I'm still not quite sure what Gove's actual reason for shortening it is?

Because children would be back down the mines if he had it his way. He has absolutely no clue about child development and education.

 

[jusali]

That is exactly how I feel, when you have kids the cards are stacked against you unless the one breadwinner is on a very good pay packet.

We have been very lucky in that ex is a teacher so she can hold down a job AND look after the kids during school holidays which means I can also work (if I can find a flipping job!) but I am very aware that this is not the situation most families find themselves in.

Well I'm the only breadwinner on a below average wage and the mrs is in training (i.e 37.5hr shifts etc no pay) the amount of money going out the door on childcare costs more than the mortgage!

 

[weltweit]

Well I'm the only breadwinner on a below average wage and the mrs is in training (i.e 37.5hr shifts etc no pay) the amount of money going out the door on childcare costs more than the mortgage!

Yes, it is difficult. Even when kids are in school they finish their day at something like 3.30 and someone has to be there to collect them when they are little. So that is either a parent who in that case can't work or a minder who will need paying.

It is very difficult for a traditional mum or modern man to be a stay home parent and have any kind of job at all.

 

[mr steev]

No-one here is arguing for reducing the total number of school holidays. The argument for those in favour of reducing the 6 week summer break is to compensate by extending other holidays by the amount of that reduction.

Yes, I know. But I don't agree that the summer holiday should be shortened, and I think that lengthening the easter and christmas breaks or half terms will create it's own problems.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Yes, I know. But I don't agree that the summer holiday should be shortened, and I think that lengthening the easter and christmas breaks or half terms will create it's own problems.

You may not agree with it, but stop accusing people who think it's a reasonable idea of wanting to cut holidays. That's misleading.

As for the argument that it will create it's own problems, it's hard to give that any real consideration without outlining what they are. The arguments for it are as follows:
,
1) Create more balanced ratio of work - holiday through the year.
2) Allows for regional shifting of holidays, reducing peak pricing for travel
3) Allows for cost of childcare at holidays to be spread through the year, rather than being largely lumped into one period.
4) Keeps up momentum of study. It would seem a reasonable possibility that working patterns and studies will see a lesser decrease from a 4 week break than a 6 week break.

The lengthy summer holiday pattern was created in a time when society and environment were massively different. The standard 2 parent family, with 1 adult working, and a large extended family nearby, is far less common. Safe environments were even younger children could go out for a day of adventures without exposure to significant risks are not the norm. Weather pattern changes in the UK means that you're as likely to have good weather in Spring and Autumn as you are in summer. The requirement for children in agricultural regions to lend a hand during the summer farming season is gone. In short, a number of the major factors that made a lengthy summer holiday a good idea are no longer the case.

 

[spanglechick]

I do take the argument. Serious question, how did families cope 10, 15 years ago, when stay at home parenting had already disappeared?

In terms of the children, I think a long holiday allows them do develop their identity separate from school. After two or three weeks school and the return will still be looming large. I think it would be a shame if rich kids still get their carefree long summers, while purely due to childcare costs we take that away from less wealthy kids.

I also have rEservations with school being the right place for wrap around care or holiday schemes. I'd hate for kids to be spend as much of their waking time at school as they do in their homes. School shouldn't be that important.

 

[mr steev]

You may not agree with it, but stop accusing people who think it's a reasonable idea of wanting to cut holidays. That's misleading.

Sorry if it was misleading, but when you talk about reducing a six week break to 4 weeks then you are cutting it. I'm not referring to cutting the overall school year, I'm talking about cutting a 6 week break because some people are saying that a 6 week break is too long and I disagree. No one is discussing reducing the amount of school days. However, as far as I understand it, Gove wants to allow heads to arrange school holidays independently with a MINIMUM of 190 teaching days, which will also give heads the power to increase the teaching term. But ignoring that issue and just on the subject of re-arranging holidays...

1) Create more balanced ratio of work - holiday through the year.

Schools already work in 5 week or 10 week blocks, which works fine.

2) Allows for regional shifting of holidays, reducing peak pricing for travel

Pushes parents to take their summer holidays during 4 weeks rather than 6 so will make those 4 weeks busier. (presuming that schools take the same 4 weeks - if not then there's the potential for sibblings to have different holidays). Holiday companies, campsites, hotels and airlines etc will adjust their pricing so as not to lose out.

3) Allows for cost of childcare at holidays to be spread through the year, rather than being largely lumped into one period.

Adds extra expense to christmas as childcare/facilities will be more in demand during cold wet short days.

4) Keeps up momentum of study. It would seem a reasonable possibility that working patterns and studies will see a lesser decrease from a 4 week break than a 6 week break.

Schools work on a yearly basis. Subjects generally don't continue in the same block to the next academic year

The biggest factor is that I don't believe childhood should completely revolve around school and I think that a long 6 week break for children is a good thing. Most of Europe and independent schools seem to agree.

Allowing schools to set their own terms creates the potential of sibblings in different schools and parents who work in education having different holidays.

Shortening the 6 week break will give teachers less planning time for the year ahead.

There aren't enough summer schools or playschemes as it is, there are even less during the rest of the year. Regardless of the changing weather patterns Easter and definitely Christmas still have worse weather and shorter days then the summer.

 

[equationgirl]

I do take the argument. Serious question, how did families cope 10, 15 years ago, when stay at home parenting had already disappeared?

In terms of the children, I think a long holiday allows them do develop their identity separate from school. After two or three weeks school and the return will still be looming large. I think it would be a shame if rich kids still get their carefree long summers, while purely due to childcare costs we take that away from less wealthy kids.

I also have rEservations with school being the right place for wrap around care or holiday schemes. I'd hate for kids to be spend as much of their waking time at school as they do in their homes. School shouldn't be that important.

I know my parents only managed with us because my mum worked in a school. The holidays didn't quite overlap because it was different to where we went to school so either we would go in with her when it was empty or we would go to my grandparents or aunt. Otherwise she looked after us. This was going back 30 years though.

I think it's wrong to take a long break away from both kids and teachers.

 

[Thora]

I do take the argument. Serious question, how did families cope 10, 15 years ago, when stay at home parenting had already disappeared?

There certainly used to be a lot more in the way of funding for playschemes and cheap activity camps than there are now.

 

[_angel_]

I do take the argument. Serious question, how did families cope 10, 15 years ago, when stay at home parenting had already disappeared?

Less women worked and it was seen as ok to let your kids out for hours on end.

Six weeks hols are shit for special needs kids.

 

[spanglechick]

Holidays are unlikely to move far enough to advantage the holiday price situation. April to early summer is exam season these days (which is why may half term rarely moves). Bank holidays at Easter, Xmas and new year make it pretty essential to have the school hols covering those (mayday is the only BH that currently falls inside termtime). Things might vary a week or so either side - a three week Xmas holiday could start a week earlier or end a week later, but a week or two isn't going to make holidays any cheaper.

 

[_angel_]

Sorry if it was misleading, but when you talk about reducing a six week break to 4 weeks then you are cutting it. I'm not referring to cutting the overall school year, I'm talking about cutting a 6 week break because some people are saying that a 6 week break is too long and I disagree. No one is discussing reducing the amount of school days. However, as far as I understand it, Gove wants to allow heads to arrange school holidays independently with a MINIMUM of 190 teaching days, which will also give heads the power to increase the teaching term. But ignoring that issue and just on the subject of re-arranging holidays...



Schools already work in 5 week or 10 week blocks, which works fine.



Pushes parents to take their summer holidays during 4 weeks rather than 6 so will make those 4 weeks busier. (presuming that schools take the same 4 weeks - if not then there's the potential for sibblings to have different holidays). Holiday companies, campsites, hotels and airlines etc will adjust their pricing so as not to lose out.



Adds extra expense to christmas as childcare/facilities will be more in demand during cold wet short days.



Schools work on a yearly basis. Subjects generally don't continue in the same block to the next academic year

The biggest factor is that I don't believe childhood should completely revolve around school and I think that a long 6 week break for children is a good thing. Most of Europe and independent schools seem to agree.

Allowing schools to set their own terms creates the potential of sibblings in different schools and parents who work in education having different holidays.

Shortening the 6 week break will give teachers less planning time for the year ahead.

There aren't enough summer schools or playschemes as it is, there are even less during the rest of the year. Regardless of the changing weather patterns Easter and definitely Christmas still have worse weather and shorter days then the summer.

you still need to pay for childcare no matter how long/short the day is.



always seemed odd to start academic term when its getting colder/ shorter days. Anyone whose done a nightclass will tell you!

 

[Thora]

Six weeks hols are shit for special needs kids.

And for disabled parents, vulnerable children/families. Although social services do occasionally pay for holiday schemes for young children where I work if being at home for 6 weeks is likely to be unsafe or push the family into crisis.

 

[mr steev]

you still need to pay for childcare no matter how long/short the day is.

True, but for older kids there will be more of a need because they cannot go over the park and play footy for a few hours etc. Also, many of the summer play schemes are based outside. During winter it would all have to be indoors increasing the cost.

always seemed odd to start academic term when its getting colder/ shorter days. Anyone whose done a nightclass will tell you!

Makes very little difference as there is only a week or so when it is darker during the day and you're inside most of the time anyway

 

[Lemon Eddy]

In order of your points:

1) Schools already work in 5 week or 10 week blocks, which works fine.
Which just demonstrates how unbalanced the setup is. Right now the terms are different lengths, the holidays between them are different lengths. Saying "it works fine" is not an argument that something can't be done better. It's just saying that this is what you're used to.

2)Pushes parents to take their summer holidays during 4 weeks rather than 6 so will make those 4 weeks busier.
Nope, for all manner of reasons. For starters, look at the french method of staggering different regions, to help spread peaks. Then consider that most people now take their holiday abroad (often because it's cheaper than a family holiday in the UK) and that a lot of package destinations have a season that works just fine for a 4 week period in spring or autumn. In short, doing this in a logical way would spread out the holiday times from 6 weeks to 12.

3) Adds extra expense to christmas as childcare/facilities will be more in demand during cold wet short days.
Thora's already point out that it's a lot easier to ask friends and family to help if it's for smaller periods spread across the year, rather than in one lump when many of them have their own holiday plans. I'd also have to ask just how you reckon booking childcare works? If I know I have no cover for my kids, it doesn't matter what the weather is, and I don't know of any childcare facility that reliably lets you just turn up on the day. If your kids are off and you've got no cover, you need to book childcare, rain or shine.

4) Schools work on a yearly basis. Subjects generally don't continue in the same block to the next academic year
And? Decreasing the gap between years from 6 weeks to 4 still has the same logical potential for improvement.

5)I don't believe childhood should completely revolve around school and I think that a long 6 week break for children is a good thing.
Childhood should revolve around a combination of happy family life, fun, education and self development. You tell me just why having the same amount of time off, but split more evenly, is going to have a negative effect on that?

 

[chilango]

Long term there's only two answers to the childcare problem.

1/ raise wages (and slow down the spiralling cost of living and housing) so that families can afford to live on 1 income.

Or

2/ universal free childcare, workplace crèches etc. etc.

Fucking up kids education whilst waving the distraction of two weeks less summer childcare is not an answer.

 

[_angel_]

And for disabled parents, vulnerable children/families. Although social services do occasionally pay for holiday schemes for young children where I work if being at home for 6 weeks is likely to be unsafe or push the family into crisis.

they dont pay here and you're doing well to get transport sorted

 

[Thora]

How does shorter, more frequent holidays fuck up kids' education?

I can understand your point that it is an attack on teachers' benefits, but not that it would damage education.

 

[chilango]

How does shorter, more frequent holidays fuck up kids' education?

I can understand your point that it is an attack on teachers' benefits, but not that it would damage education.

We're already seeing Free School/Academy bosses using this to cut the number of total days holiday. Afaics the plan will be longer school years, not more frequent holidays (though this might happen to begin with).

Having taught in a system that went down this road I've seen first hand hand that it doesn't improve kids' learning and that it also detracts from teachers' teaching. Knackered kids and knackered teachers are not conducive to improving education.

 

[mr steev]

Right now the terms are different lengths, the holidays between them are different lengths.

Holidays are the same lenghts - 2 weeks for christmas and easter, 1 for half terms. Terms only vary by a week. If you start spreading extra days through the year your going to end up with half weeks.

For starters, look at the french method of staggering different regions, to help spread peaks.

All schools in France have the same summer holidays. Irrc the whole country goes on holiday in August. The other breaks are spread to ease congestion around the winter holiday resorts which is irrelevant to the UK

Then consider that most people now take their holiday abroad (often because it's cheaper than a family holiday in the UK) and that a lot of package destinations have a season that works just fine for a 4 week period in spring or autumn.

Great if you do take your holidays abroad, but if you don't you get less time off in the summer and more in the crap weather

Childhood should revolve around a combination of happy family life, fun, education and self development. You tell me just why having the same amount of time off, but split more evenly, is going to have a negative effect on that?

Because I think it is good for a child to have a long break. That feeling that there's an endless summer ahead with no school looming. The time to go away with your family AND have time at home with your friends.

Thora's already point out that it's a lot easier to ask friends and family to help if it's for smaller periods spread across the year, rather than in one lump when many of them have their own holiday plans. I'd also have to ask just how you reckon booking childcare works? If I know I have no cover for my kids, it doesn't matter what the weather is, and I don't know of any childcare facility that reliably lets you just turn up on the day. If your kids are off and you've got no cover, you need to book childcare, rain or shine.

As has been said, schools are not there to provide childcare... which I do think seems to be the major concern here. The point is that there needs to be more affordable summer schools, playschemes, children's facilities during the holidays that we have. Not changing the holidays.

 

[8ball]

I'd be sad to see the long summer hol go.

Maybe we could reach a compromise of a 7-week holiday but with a week of rigorous Latin exams half-way through.
I think Mr Gove might settle for that.

 

[_angel_]

We're already seeing Free School/Academy bosses using this to cut the number of total days holiday. Afaics the plan will be longer school years, not more frequent holidays (though this might happen to begin with).

Having taught in a system that went down this road I've seen first hand hand that it doesn't improve kids' learning and that it also detracts from teachers' teaching. Knackered kids and knackered teachers are not conducive to improving education.

nobody is actually arguing for this, though (on here)

 

[chilango]

nobody is actually arguing for this, though (on here)

They might not be.

But this is where I think this is going.