The Brexit process

[Anju]

thousands and thousands have died trying to cross the EU borders and the EU commissioner makes his little joke as if they have appointed a general to defend it, as if the dead are the casualties of an invading army. Is that the nice EU that the nice people voted for?

Was it the EU of Cameron's 'deal' and the continuation/expansion of policies towards creating a 'hostile environment' for immigrants? Or the EU of attacking the remnants of social democracy - its savagery towards Greece?

What and who do your political views mean siding with?

Across Europe the left is disoriented and outmanoeuvred by an energised and growing right, inside and outside of the EU. If you think a remain vote could have done anything more than briefly papered over the cracks then you're badly mistaken. The 'success' that you apparently regard as tied to the EU is not one shared by huge numbers of people and the left was in no position to exploit either result. What is the solution to that? You seem to have no faith whatsoever in the ability of ordinary people to resist, as if politics is purely something done to us by the 'government'. If that is so then it was a hopeless case even if the result had been different.

I'm a bit short on political views. The referendum was the first time I have ever voted.

I side with people I hope are similar to myself. I don't mean colour, religion, gender, sexuality, or politics but people who I believe are going to share my values.

People are viewing the EU solely as a political/economic institution. The EU might not have legislated against laws attacking workers rights but are not to blame for policies our government wants to impose. It would not be possible to legislate against individual laws in separate countries. There are people in every EU country that I would feel a connection to, and there are countries where the population is more active in terms of standing up for themselves. We probably had a better chance of fighting for workers rights, social justice and refugee rights inside the EU with the help of fellow Europeans.

 

[Anju]

I'm a conspiracy theorist because I am arguing against Anju's view that casting a vote one way or the other in the referendum in itself means lining up with the far right/whatever?

weird.

I am not saying that your views are aligned with the Tories or far right but that you voted with them and so helped put us in the hands of the first government that I have been fearful of, rather than just opposed or indifferent to in my 47 years

 

[bimble]

Look at trends on Google, Facebook, instagram and tell me if you think change driven by the majority is on the way.

When I look at the Daily Mail I do get the feeling that change driven by the majority (of their commentators) is on the way.
Henry for instance, wrote in from Spain this morning:

 

[Anju]

When I look at the Daily Mail I do get the feeling that change driven by the majority (of their commentators) is on the way.
Henry for instance, wrote in from Spain this morning:
View attachment 93797

Yet again I should have been more specific. I meant the kind of positive change people here hope for.

From Spain. Ffs.

 

[bimble]

Yet again I should have been more specific. I meant the kind of positive change people here hope for

I know you meant that.

 

[krtek a houby]

When I look at the Daily Mail I do get the feeling that change driven by the majority (of their commentators) is on the way.
Henry for instance, wrote in from Spain this morning:
View attachment 93797

That's got to be a spoof!

 

[Anju]

That's got to be a spoof!

Possibly not. My parents live in Spain and have met loads of English people who moan about immigration in the UK.

 

[bi0boy]

I must admit to having previously trolled DM comments to see how many green or red votes I could get for a one liner.

 

[krtek a houby]

Possibly not. My parents live in Spain and have met loads of English people who moan about immigration in the UK.

The mind boggles. It really does. Do they not have any sense of irony? The moaners, not your folks, obviously.

 

[sleaterkinney]

How will the UK leaving the EU make any difference to Greece?. Doesn't it mean any government we elect won't have a say either?

 

[Anju]

The mind boggles. It really does. Do they not have any sense of irony? The moaners, not your folks, obviously.

They had heard this quite a lot over the years but since the referendum it has increased. My sister lives there as well and has cut off a few friends, real life and online, over the past few months.

 

[sealion]

I am not saying that your views are aligned with the Tories or far right but that you voted with them and so helped put us in the hands of the first government that I have been fearful of, rather than just opposed or indifferent to in my 47 years

Not even Thatchers Reign ?

 

[inva]

I am not saying that your views are aligned with the Tories or far right but that you voted with them and so helped put us in the hands of the first government that I have been fearful of, rather than just opposed or indifferent to in my 47 years

well you said "siding with", which is what I was arguing against in what you quoted. Still I'm glad you're not saying my views are aligned with the far right, that's something isn't it?

And I'm sorry you're fearful now, you're certainly not alone there. That said, we already had a government I had reason to be afraid of, one that attacked my living standards and made threats to take away my entire income. Many others had reasons to be fearful too - do you remember the threatening text messages and anti immigrant signs driven around on vans, or the many other vicious policies they had?

 

[krtek a houby]

They had heard this quite a lot over the years but since the referendum it has increased. My sister lives there as well and has cut off a few friends, real life and online, over the past few months.

Awful. I'd been tempted at one stage to move to the Canaries but that kind of attitude would put me right off.

 

[Anju]

Not even Thatchers Reign ?

I was only 10 when she was elected and I went down the warehouse party, blues dance, raver, squat party route once I was old enough to vote. Even with hindsight this lot seem more sinister

 

[sealion]

Even with hindsight this lot seem more sinister

Only time will tell i guess.

 

[Anju]

well you said "siding with", which is what I was arguing against in what you quoted. Still I'm glad you're not saying my views are aligned with the far right, that's something isn't it?

And I'm sorry you're fearful now, you're certainly not alone there. That said, we already had a government I had reason to be afraid of, one that attacked my living standards and made threats to take away my entire income. Many others had reasons to be fearful too - do you remember the threatening text messages and anti immigrant signs driven around on vans, or the many other vicious policies they had?

Yes I remember the vans and who it was that thought they were a good idea.

If it is the attacks on benefits and care for disabled people that affect you I understand why you would fear our government. The EU does have a stance on disability and although they could do more at least they propose things that make it easier for people to go about their day to day activities. Unfortunately having the money, aids, help to use accessible transport, buildings and services in down to our government.

I just hope we find a way to stop what May and here little group are trying to do.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

If you voted leave you voted with EDL, Farrage, Johnson, Gove, Murdoch etc.

No I fucking didn't. I didn't vote with anyone. I voted for what I believe in. I'm sure there were a few mass murderers and nonces that voted remain, but I wouldn't go accusing you of siding with them. What an idiotic statement to make.

It was always going to be them in power if we voted leave.

The EDL are in power now? Get a grip of yourself will you.

 

[Anju]

No I fucking didn't. I didn't vote with anyone. I voted for what I believe in. I'm sure there were a few mass murderers and nonces that voted remain, but I wouldn't go accusing you of siding with them. What an idiotic statement to make.



The EDL are in power now? Get a grip of yourself will you.

Are you saying your vote was counted separately into the worthy brexit pile. It was not an option poll, the result was always going to have consequences and the people taking power were the ones who would decide the actions taken.

The EDL may not be in power but their supporters are being courted by those in power now. The rhetoric is harmful and the policies when they come will inflict a lot of damage on people and attitudes.

I am not saying this is what you wanted but I wonder what you expected to happen.

 

[sleaterkinney]

No I fucking didn't. I didn't vote with anyone. I voted for what I believe in. I'm sure there were a few mass murderers and nonces that voted remain, but I wouldn't go accusing you of siding with them. What an idiotic statement to make.

Do you disagree that they're stronger as a result of the vote that you cast?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Do you disagree that they're stronger as a result of the vote that you cast?

Yes

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yes

That's nuts, it was obviously a win for them, look at the rhetoric that came out of the Tory party conference.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Are you saying your vote was counted separately into the worthy brexit pile.

My vote was my vote. Full stop. I could quite as easily berate you for not voting leave, and as such ceding the nature of Brexit to the right. Why did you do this Anju? Why did you enable the right by voting remain? Do you see how ridiculous this 'guilty by association' argument is?

It was not an option poll, the result was always going to have consequences and the people taking power were the ones who would decide the actions taken.

The EDL may not be in power but their supporters are being courted by those in power now. The rhetoric is harmful and the policies when they come will inflict a lot of damage on people and attitudes.

I am not saying this is what you wanted but I wonder what you expected to happen.

What I expected was a 12 seat majority for the tories, and the labour party to use that fact to be a somewhat effective opposition. Unfortunately it seems that the wreckers on the right wing of Labour will not allow that to happen - wreckers who by and large voted remain and would like to ignore the referendum result.

So I guess that's two counts on which you and your political allies have enabled the right. One, by not having the guts to vote on principle rather than misguided tribalism, and two, by voting with people who are gifting the tories a lead in the opinion polls through their splitting of the labour party. You remainers have a lot to answer for.

Do you see how ridiculous this 'guilty by association' argument is?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

That's nuts, it was obviously a win for them, look at the rhetoric that came out of the Tory party conference.

Ooooh 'rhetoric'. Who cares about rhetoric. What matters is objective power relations, not words. You act like no agency exists inside people to fight any challenge to their rights.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So I guess that's two counts on which you and your political allies have enabled the right. One, by not having the guts to vote on principle rather than misguided tribalism, and two, by voting with people who are gifting the tories a lead in the opinion polls through their splitting of the labour party. You remainers have a lot to answer for.

(I'm aware you're being sarcastic for effect here but) there were no great principles on offer in this referendum. None.

 

[Reno]

Yes

It was absolutely clear that the main impetus behind the referendum vote was xenophobia and racism, that if we leave the single union anybody who knows a little bit about business predicted that the economy would tank and by taking the power from EU you've handed all of it to the most loathsome incarnation of the Tories yet. Well done, you !

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

(I'm aware you're being sarcastic for effect here but) there were no great principles on offer in this referendum. None.

You're correct, I'm being sarcastic. There were certainly principles though. Not in either of the campaigns leading up to the vote, but I didn't pay attention to any of that anyway. My opinion was formed even before a referendum was announced.

Anyway, I've got to dash, so can't continue the conversation until later.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

It was absolutely clear that the main impetus behind the referendum vote was xenophobia and racism, that if we leave the single union anybody who knows a little bit about business predicted that the economy would tank and by taking the power from EU you've handed all of it to the most loathsome incarnation of the Tories yet. Well done you !

get fucked

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You're correct, I'm being sarcastic. There were certainly principles though. Not in either of the campaigns leading up to the vote, but I didn't pay attention to any of that anyway. My opinion was formed even before a referendum was announced.

Anyway, I've got to dash, so can't continue the conversation until later.

ok, laters then. But I don't agree about principles - I'm not talking about the campaigns, but rather the actual question posed on the ballot paper. UK stays in the EU or not (crucially, with no indication of what 'not' might actually mean)? There are lots of questions I'd like to be asked, but that ain't one of them.

 

[Reno]

get fucked

I'm in the process of getting out of this fucked country after three decades here, thanks to twats like you. Another foreigner down, which should make the cunts you aligned yourself with very happy !