The Brexit process

[redsquirrel]

I hesitate to post this because I know that it'll bring a load of the usual boring pricks around moaning, but the difference here really is the difference between liberalism and a class-based perspective. For some this doesn't go any further than opposing the Tories (we need to stop them! Help us EU) and thus supporting Labour. For me that's nonsense, this is about capital and labour. This is a fundamental political difference and precisely why liberalism isn't aligned with socialism/communism/anarchism.

 

[DotCommunist]

I hesitate to post this because I know that it'll bring a load of the usual boring pricks around moaning, but the difference really is the difference between liberalism and a class-based perspective. For some this doesn't go any further than opposing the Tories (we need to stop them! Help us EU) and Labour. For me that's nonsense this is about capital and labour, this is a fundamental difference and precisely why liberalism isn't aligned with socialism/communism/anarchism.

its exactly the argument I was sold 'but the tories!' and its the same argument wheeled out every five years by Labour doorsteppers.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

They deserve it according to Anju

Is this true, Anju?

 

[redsquirrel]

Is this true, Anju?

Another helpful reply. Carry on blaming the EU for all of the problems in Greece. Regardless of whether they were in the EU they would be in trouble now. Non EU countries were also affected by the financial crisis. The Greek government was, and still is, corrupt. If Greece was not in the EU what would they have done? If you were advising them what would your advice have been.

I would support any move to help Greece
Trouble is you are missing out the Greek government. Nobody chose Greece at random and said lets screw them over. Their government has to shoulder some responsibility. I don't think you can just blame the EU and banks did not impose the loans on Greece. I would favour just extending rhe loans at interest, negative if need be, rates that kept the total to be repaid the same as if it was repaid on time. I recently finished paying off a loan at £20 per month after I lost my job 15 years ago and got into a bit of trouble. Couple this with increased EU funding for infrastructure, education and business.

Not sure if that is feasible but to simply write off the loans of one country is risky.

Yes what happened / is happening in Greece is terrible. It is nice to see someone at least considering that the government and elites of Greece should take some responsibility.. I remember Greeks being the original oligarchs / billionaire super yacht owning world travelers. The government were terribly corrupt. Business tax inspectors would demand money and just keep it or maybe hand over a portion to the government. Many people seem to only blame the EU.

see the discussion in this thread

 

[Anju]

Is this true, Anju?

If showing sympathy for the people and blaming their government and elite for the problems then yes. I think suggesting extending the loans is a reasonable solution.
I don't really know what all the milestones were but I don't think Greece should have agreed to mass privatisation. Sorting out their tax system seems essential.

 

[Anju]

see the discussion in this thread

Wow, didn't realise I had upset you so much. It looks a bit weird you looking up my old posts and putting them here. Very Donald Trump

 

[Pickman's model]

Wow, didn't realise I had upset you so much. It looks a bit weird you looking up my old posts and putting them here. Very Donald Trump

Oh dear

 

[redsquirrel]

Wow, didn't realise I had upset you so much. It looks a bit weird you looking up my old posts and putting them here. Very Donald Trump

Yeah, how dare I remember what you said four months ago. That's right I'm just like misogynistic racist. You apologised to BA yet or do you still insist he's a racist too? Prick.

 

[Anju]

Yeah, how dare I remember what you said four months ago. That's right I'm just like misogynistic racist. You apologised to BA yet or do you still insist he's a racist too? Prick.

This is one of those things where someone gets all defensive because they fucked up. Why not just forgive yourself for helping install TM and her team.

As you can remember what someone you don't know said on an internet message board 4 months ago I would also suggest you pop out and get a life.

 

[redsquirrel]

And there it is again, all remain voters love the Tories (as well as being thick racists). Liberalism at it's finest.

 

[Anju]

And there it is again, all remain voters love the Tories (as well as being thick racists). Liberalism at it's finest.

This is so sad. I have said nothing rude to you yet you feel the need to be rude to me, to drag up old posts that while they are saying things you disagree with are not calling for anything other than for the Greek establishment to be held to account.

In the context of today's posts what made you angry and what was the purpose of falsly saying I had posted that the Greeks deserved it.

 

[redsquirrel]

I'm not angry I just think you're a dishonest prick. From virtually your first post on U75 you've been smearing Leave voters as thick, Tory-supporting racists, including specifically calling one long-term poster a violent racist, something that you still haven't retracted or apologised for. If you don't think that's rude then you're even more of an idiot than I thought.

On Greece, your posts on the thread I linked to quite clearly indicate that you do think the Greeks deserved the austerity imposed on them. Oh no doubt you're dreadfully sorry that people are being pushed into poverty and dying early but "they" do have to take responsibility.

 

[brogdale]

Ascribing widespread racist motivation for the leave vote is truly to tilt at windmills. The electorate were never offered any indication of why our domestic party of capital had to resort to a referendum, or anything other than the most superficial of political interpretations of the options given. The choice presented between supra-nationalism and nationalism gave no clue of the real tory divisions that precipitated the move to direct democracy.

The only real choice on offer in the referendum was between 2 different preferences for the effective progress of neoliberal trends; via the regional super-state or through global, free-trade. As such there was no anti-capitalist position for the left to take, merely the chance to choose which option might, potentially be most disruptive to capital.

To view this through the prism of domestic party politics is to miss the meta-narrative of the division within capital about the best route to effect domination over labour.

 

[Raheem]

Ascribing widespread racist motivation for the leave vote is truly to tilt at windmills. The electorate were never offered any indication of why our domestic party of capital had to resort to a referendum, or anything other than the most superficial of political interpretations of the options given. The choice presented between supra-nationalism and nationalism gave no clue of the real tory divisions that precipitated the move to direct democracy.

The only real choice on offer in the referendum was between 2 different preferences for the effective progress of neoliberal trends; via the regional super-state or through global, free-trade. As such there was no anti-capitalist position for the left to take, merely the chance to choose which option might, potentially be most disruptive to capital.

To view this through the prism of domestic party politics is to miss the meta-narrative of the division within capital about the best route to effect domination over labour.

This is fine as a personal analysis, but to most leave voters you may as well be talking Mandarin. Most leave voters voted to reduce immigration, and most held generally right-wing views, which is not tilting at anything. It's supported by polling data.

 

[brogdale]

This is fine as a personal analysis, but to most leave voters you may as well be talking Mandarin. Most leave voters voted to reduce immigration, and most held generally right-wing views, which is not tilting at anything. It's supported by polling data.

Well, yes...but then I wasn't attempting to talk to 'most leave voters', merely those people posting in this thread. And yes, many leave voters did think they were being offered the chance to reduce (control) immigration because that's what they were promised.

 

[magneze]

This is fine as a personal analysis, but to most leave voters you may as well be talking Mandarin. Most leave voters voted to reduce immigration, and most held generally right-wing views, which is not tilting at anything. It's supported by polling data.

Care to link to that data? The Ashcroft polling data didn't have immigration as the top reason.

 

[Gromit]

We need to negotiate a better deal with the euromillions lottery when we leave.

We give millions to them every year but we always seem to get back less than we give.

I gave them £10 last night and only got £7.20 back.

#Lexit

 

[bimble]

this is really good as a sane dispassionate attempt to analyse where we're at at the moment
The four tensions of Brexit

 

[Pickman's model]

Why not just forgive yourself for helping install TM and her team.

so what you're saying is you are disappointed david cameron and his team are not still with us.

 

[brogdale]

Stinger.



Shame the markets have closed for the day.

 

[Anju]

so what you're saying is you are disappointed david cameron and his team are not still with us.

What I'm saying is that voting leave was always going to result in a more right wing government. If you voted leave then your vote, regardless of intention, helped install these people in power.

Not sure what harm it is supposed to do to capitalism, which seems a popular reason here for voting leave but although it is going to make life harder for a lot of people I can't see any rising up of the working class on the horizon.

If people really cared about workers rights they could be doing something to help empower people rather than destroy their economic prospects. I have seen not one campaign helping people understand their rights and how to fight for them, or anything similar As far as most ordinary people in this country are concerned there is little they can do to improve their situation and anyone who claims to be concerned with workers rights should be starting there. Claiming that Britain leaving the EU gives a fighting chance against capitalism ignores the fact that most people are not interested in or are unaware of 'the fight'.

 

[J Ed]

What I'm saying is that voting leave was always going to result in a more right wing government. If you voted leave then your vote, regardless of intention, helped install these people in power.

Can you explain how a Remain vote would have left us with a not right-wing government?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Can you explain how a Remain vote would have left us with a not right-wing government?

Anju didn't say that. They said 'more r/w'. So they don't have to explain that.

 

[J Ed]

Anju didn't say that. They said 'more r/w'. So they don't have to explain that.

I suppose you are right, although I think that whether or not the current government is to the right of the previous one is up for debate.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I suppose you are right, although I think that whether or not the current government is to the right of the previous one is up for debate.

yep, I think that's open to debate too. But there is virtually nobody on these boards who cheerleads the EU and thinks things were fine pre-brexit vote. For most, like me, a vote to remain was one to be done with a clothes peg on the nose because the alternative was even worse.

 

[Anju]

I suppose you are right, although I think that whether or not the current government is to the right of the previous one is up for debate.

Further right or not they are going to cause way more damage. What happens if they rush through some dodgy version of TTIP, hailing it as a beneficial trade deal and then remain in power at the next GE.

 

[Pickman's model]

What I'm saying is that voting leave was always going to result in a more right wing government. If you voted leave then your vote, regardless of intention, helped install these people in power.

Not sure what harm it is supposed to do to capitalism, which seems a popular reason here for voting leave but although it is going to make life harder for a lot of people I can't see any rising up of the working class on the horizon.

If people really cared about workers rights they could be doing something to help empower people rather than destroy their economic prospects. I have seen not one campaign helping people understand their rights and how to fight for them, or anything similar As far as most ordinary people in this country are concerned there is little they can do to improve their situation and anyone who claims to be concerned with workers rights should be starting there. Claiming that Britain leaving the EU gives a fighting chance against capitalism ignores the fact that most people are not interested in or are unaware of 'the fight'.

These people were already in power

 

[Pickman's model]

Further right or not they are going to cause way more damage. What happens if they rush through some dodgy version of TTIP, hailing it as a beneficial trade deal and then remain in power at the next GE.

Do you really think that possible by 2020 that tm can deliver brexit and ttip?

 

[Anju]

These people were already in power

They were in government but not in power. The referendum was equivalent to a GE but Tory v Tory.

 

[Anju]

Do you really think that possible by 2020 that tm can deliver brexit and ttip?

They have to deliver something and a trade deal with the US is top of their list. I doubt they are opposed to opening up our public services to America so a trade deal would not be difficult to sort out. The template is already there.