The Brexit process

[Anju]

My vote was my vote. Full stop. I could quite as easily berate you for not voting leave, and as such ceding the nature of Brexit to the right. Why did you do this Anju? Why did you enable the right by voting remain? Do you see how ridiculous this 'guilty by association' argument is?



What I expected was a 12 seat majority for the tories, and the labour party to use that fact to be a somewhat effective opposition. Unfortunately it seems that the wreckers on the right wing of Labour will not allow that to happen - wreckers who by and large voted remain and would like to ignore the referendum result.

So I guess that's two counts on which you and your political allies have enabled the right. One, by not having the guts to vote on principle rather than misguided tribalism, and two, by voting with people who are gifting the tories a lead in the opinion polls through their splitting of the labour party. You remainers have a lot to answer for.

Do you see how ridiculous this 'guilty by association' argument is?

I don't have any political allies, or in fact any allies.

There was always going to be a shift to the right if leave won.

At worst if remain won things would have carried on as they are. It might even have been that the worst elements in the Tory party were marginalised. At best people might have started taking more interest in politics and the EU and got involved, making positive change more achievable.

Either way people who voted remain are not responsible for any of the outcome of the vote.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There was always going to be a shift to the right if leave won.

That was my judgement as well. And absent any principles at stake, such a pragmatic judgement had to be my guide. Not that 'remain' would have solved anything - that wasn't on offer either.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Ooooh 'rhetoric'. Who cares about rhetoric. What matters is objective power relations, not words. You act like no agency exists inside people to fight any challenge to their rights.

Where to start with this, rhetoric and 'words' are what politicians and others use to distribute their ideas so yeah, they are important.

How have objective power relations been changed by giving the right a victory btw?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I'm in the process of getting out of this fucked country after three decades here, thanks to twats like you. Another foreigner down, which should make the cunts you aligned yourself with very happy !

Practically no Britishness in me. I'll be staying though, and quite happily too. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

At worst if remain won things would have carried on as they are.

This is precisely what I disagree with. This is the assumption that causes us to come to different conclusions.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

How have objective power relations been changed by giving the right a victory btw?

They haven't on a domestic level. That was my point. On an EU wide level, once we leave the EU they won't be able to push us into further political integration with their neoliberal project though.

 

[sleaterkinney]

They haven't on a domestic level. That was my point. On an EU wide level, once we leave the EU they won't be able to push us into further political integration with their neoliberal project though.

The UK has been quite able to do that by itself, and the brexiters will want even more of the same so it will change.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

The UK has been quite able to do that by itself, and the brexiters will want even more of the same so it will change.

We're just going round in circles now, so I'll just say it one more time. I don't care what 'the brexiters' want. I care about what it is possible for them to do, and what is possible in response. Positive change can only occur through a struggle that extends through time in a process that involves a back-and-forth, but remainers believe that the EU removes the necessity for that struggle - that we can now sit back on our laurels because of the warm cuddly embrace of a continent-wide progressive liberalism that exists only in their imagination. This is dangerous; it makes the loss of our rights over time almost inevitable.

History tells a completely different story though. As DotCommunist said earlier, we have had centuries of winning rights before the EU even existed. That can continue. The pro-EU argument is well-intentioned but fundamentally mistaken because it is short-sighted. This short-sightedness sees only surface features such as the paper-thin rights falsely promised by the institutions in Brussels. The EU is a sheep in wolf's clothing. With the tories we know our enemy.

 

[Anju]

This is precisely what I disagree with. This is the assumption that causes us to come to different conclusions.

I suppose it doesn't matter now why we come to different conclusions. We have potentially the most unpleasant government I have seen in this country and bigoted people thinking they have a mandate to express their views through action.



If their stance gets them public support and Labour continue to feud and fight I think we are looking at a very bleak future.

 

[Pickman's model]

I suppose it doesn't matter now why we come to different conclusions. We have potentially the most unpleasant government I have seen in this country and bigoted people thinking they have a mandate to express their views through action.



If their stance gets them public support and Labour continue to feud and fight I think we are looking at a very bleak future.

doesn't matter, we were looking at a very bleak future on 22/6/2016 and we're looking at a slightly bleaker future now.

 

[brogdale]

We're just going round in circles now, so I'll just say it one more time. I don't care what 'the brexiters' want. I care about what it is possible for them to do, and what is possible in response. Positive change can only occur through a struggle that extends through time in a process that involves a back-and-forth, but remainers believe that the EU removes the necessity for that struggle - that we can now sit back on our laurels because of the warm cuddly embrace of a continent-wide progressive liberalism that exists only in their imagination. This is dangerous; it makes the loss of our rights over time almost inevitable.

History tells a completely different story though. As DotCommunist said earlier, we have had centuries of winning rights before the EU even existed. That can continue. The pro-EU argument is well-intentioned but fundamentally mistaken because it is short-sighted. This short-sightedness sees only surface features such as the paper-thin rights falsely promised by the institutions in Brussels. The EU is a sheep in wolf's clothing. With the tories we know our enemy.

Yes, the 'rights' issue is a complete red-herring. The super-state is just a collation of bourgeois states, and has only ever conceded 'rights' to labour out of fear. The challenge that Brexit presents for the left is whether the potential to confront neoliberal hegemony is greater outside of the regional grouping.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I suppose it doesn't matter now why we come to different conclusions

I think it matters very much. If we don't understand why we disagree then we can never overcome our differences to work together. I'm sure we can agree that this is something that is needed now more than ever.

We have potentially the most unpleasant government I have seen in this country and bigoted people thinking they have a mandate to express their views through action.

I really don't see this. Aside from the comments by that Amber Rudd person, which were backtracked upon in a panic by the government within hours, I simply do not see any sign of this. Governments with a rock solid mandate do not backtrack. The right wing is weaker than you realise.

If their stance gets them public support and Labour continue to feud and fight I think we are looking at a very bleak future.

Labour feuds are something that I don't think anyone can hope to resolve. Despair in this area is justified. Personally I think mass deselection is the only way to end this now. Let the Blairites form their own version of the libdems. Not sure that's even possible within the rules and procedures of the labour party though, or that Corbyn has the guts to do it if it was possible.

The only point I'd make here is that direct struggle on the ground has historically been more influential in knocking the politicians into shape than just hoping a government will offer up a worthwhile platform ready made. Even now we see how the tories are beginning to abandon parts of the austerity economics (such as the ridiculous idea of aiming for a surplus) in response to the obvious disenchantment and anger that has emerged in recent years.

The emergence of an anti-austerity opposition has had a positive impact even if Corbyn's lot are not in government. Shifting the Overton Window I think the political science bods call it. The emergence of a movement that pushes for progressive Brexit would achieve the same. That requires accepting that Brexit is going to happen though, and that we have the power to shape it.

 

[bimble]

You definitely voted to lose £66 billion a year, May tells Britain

 

[Anju]

doesn't matter, we were looking at a very bleak future on 22/6/2016 and we're looking at a slightly bleaker future now.

Maybe slightly bleaker but also possibly much bleaker. Not the most enticing choice but I would prefer minimum bleakness

 

[Pickman's model]

Maybe slightly bleaker but also possibly much bleaker. Not the most enticing choice but I would prefer minimum bleakness

yeh. but you won't get minimum bleakness with the global situation as it is and with global warming.

 

[Anju]

I think it matters very much. If we don't understand why we disagree then we can never overcome our differences to work together. I'm sure we can agree that this is something that is needed now more than ever.



I really don't see this. Aside from the comments by that Amber Rudd person, which were backtracked upon in a panic by the government within hours, I simply do not see any sign of this. Governments with a rock solid mandate do not backtrack. The right wing is weaker than you realise.



Labour feuds are something that I don't think anyone can hope to resolve. Despair in this area is justified. Personally I think mass deselection is the only way to end this now. Let the Blairites form their own version of the libdems. Not sure that's even possible within the rules and procedures of the labour party though, or that Corbyn has the guts to do it if it was possible.

The only point I'd make here is that direct struggle on the ground has historically been more influential in knocking the politicians into shape than just hoping a government will offer up a worthwhile platform ready made. Even now we see how the tories are beginning to abandon parts of the austerity economics (such as the ridiculous idea of aiming for a surplus) in response to the obvious disenchantment and anger that has emerged in recent years.

The emergence of an anti-austerity opposition has had a positive impact even if Corbyn's lot are not in government. Shifting the Overton Window I think the political science bods call it. The emergence of a movement that pushes for progressive Brexit would achieve the same. That requires accepting that Brexit is going to happen though, and that we have the power to shape it.

Yes, backing down a bit on austerity is good but I feel this is just a tactic to grab a bit of support from the left.

When your PM is telling the country that if you are a citizen of the world you are a citizen of nowhere just as you are losing EU citizenship I feel it is time to worry.

 

[Anju]

yeh. but you won't get minimum bleakness with the global situation as it is and with global warming.

I have a.horrible feeling that one of the lovely Tories was claiming one of the benefits of leaving the EU was that we won't have to adhere to their environmental policies.

 

[Pickman's model]

I have a.horrible feeling that one of the lovely Tories was claiming one of the benefits of leaving the EU was that we won't have to adhere to their environmental policies.

doesn't greatly matter which policies we adhere to, we're still fucked.

 

[Anju]

doesn't reatly matter which policies we adhere to, we're still fucked.

I was trying to be optimistic about that. Norway setting a date for the banning of petrol cars, Sweden running out of rubbish, plastic eating bacteria, solar desalination, wider public acceptance of what is happening. We may be heading to some sort of semi apocalyptic future but I would like the journey to be set for minimum bleak.

 

[Pickman's model]

I was trying to be optimistic about that. Norway setting a date for the banning of petrol cars, Sweden running out of rubbish, plastic eating bacteria, solar desalination, wider public acceptance of what is happening. We may be heading to some sort of semi apocalyptic future but I would like the journey to be set for minimum bleak.

yeh. i don't think you'll like minimum bleak.

 

[bimble]

We may be heading to some sort of semi apocalyptic future but I would like the journey to be set for minimum bleak.

Just semi apocalyptic? That will please nobody.

 

[Anju]

yeh. i don't think you'll like minimum bleak.

Don't worry there is now a plan for Britain that will boost exports.

Spend tens of millions from the aid budget on a new royal yacht Britannia, Tory MPs tell Government

The whole thing just gets more and more ridiculous and will amuse me through the bleakness

 

[DotCommunist]

somehow there always seems to be enough money to spunk on the parasites floating gin palace

 

[Pickman's model]

somehow there always seems to be enough money to spunk on the parasites floating gin palace

you're missing the beauty of the scheme which is that the parasites' yacht gets scuppered in the southern ocean and those parasites not drowned are eaten by giant squid

 

[Anju]

somehow there always seems to be enough money to spunk on the parasites floating gin palace

It is unbelievable that there are 100 MPs who think that having a queen on a yacht is a good economic plan.

 

[redsquirrel]

It didn't split neatly across party lines. Or at all.

I live in Lambeth. Barring the outlier of Gibralter, Lambeth was the number one remain constituency. We're a solid Labour borough, with an increasing Green vote.

Reducing things down to Tories isn't nonsense. It's the reality of where the vote is going right now. They're 17 points clear right now, in this awful system we have. Even worse, it's just a handful of them who are determining our exit relationship. The broader base of MPs have no vote in it now. None.

So no, it's not reduced down to the tories, it's reduced down to four of them. And this is a victory? Really?

My politics is more than anti-Toryism, if your's isn't well then fine but we aren't fighting the same fight then.

 

[redsquirrel]

Greece isn't being asset stripped ?

They deserve it according to Anju

Lining up with the majority of trade unions? Or are they all part of the conspiracy too, now?

The most radical, the most effective trade unions, the ones that consistently win things for their members were for leaving.

 

[Pickman's model]

It is unbelievable that there are 100 MPs who think that having a queen on a yacht is a good economic plan.

it is a good way to sail her into the south atlantic and make her swim from south georgia to the falklands.

 

[Pickman's model]

They deserve it according to Anju

he's a little ray of sunshine.

 

[Anju]

he's a little ray of sunshine.

Happy you have noticed.