The Brexit process

[butchersapron]

If people say they voted leave so we could regain our sovereignty and the ability to male our own laws I would expect them to have some idea of what they meant.

Can you spot the two different groups in your recent posts?

 

[weltweit]

The government doesn't know why you personally voted leave though inva , that seems to be the problem, they're just guessing, and they're apparently guessing that you did it because foreigners.

A few of them seem to think the vote was to leave the single market for goods and services.

 

[Anju]

They do. Your post conflates what the current govt is doing with those reasons. You don't offer anything why this is the case being you just "working it out". Despite loads of posts from you asserting this is the the case in the week after the vote.

Yes, that is what I believed after the vote, as well as predicting a big shift to the right. I think I was correct. Someone posted a survey that showed about 50% of people opposed iimmigration. I would suggest that this means about 2% of voters did not consider immigration when making their decision.

I was accusing people of being wrong to ignore the fact that they were voting with racists when they voted leave, and that it was wrong not to make it clear that they were separate to them. By continuing to claim that the majority of leave voters were motivated largely by underlying xenophobic sentiment is doing nothing to help address this.

As you pointed out this was my position immediately after the vote and it looks to me like myself, along with a lot of other people were correct.

 

[Anju]

Can you spot the two different groups in your recent posts?

I can see people posting here lnow. I lnow why I voted as I did. Everyone knows why they voted as they did, though not all are comfortable enough to say.

 

[butchersapron]

I was correct all along. Esp the bit where i just said i said that i didn't think that all along. And where i conflate the govt and voters. But i was always right and everything that might happen or that i - or anyne else - says or does proves it.

 

[butchersapron]

I can see people posting here lnow. I lnow why I voted as I did. Everyone knows why they voted as they did, though not all are comfortable enough to say.

Can you spot the two groups in your posts?

 

[bimble]

I would suggest that this means about 2% of voters did not consider immigration when making their decision.

I was accusing people of being wrong to ignore the fact that they were voting with racists when they voted leave, and that it was wrong not to make it clear that they were separate to them. .

In the miniscule world of this website I think leave voters did make that clear, that they were voting leave for their own reasons.

Your estimate of 2% seems reasonable / generous to me so it should come as no surprise to anyone that the current administration is trying as hard as it can to charm the anti-immigrant majority.

 

[inva]

Yes, that is what I believed after the vote, as well as predicting a big shift to the right. I think I was correct. Someone posted a survey that showed about 50% of people opposed iimmigration. I would suggest that this means about 2% of voters did not consider immigration when making their decision.

I was accusing people of being wrong to ignore the fact that they were voting with racists when they voted leave, and that it was wrong not to make it clear that they were separate to them. By continuing to claim that the majority of leave voters were motivated largely by underlying xenophobic sentiment is doing nothing to help address this.

As you pointed out this was my position immediately after the vote and it looks to me like myself, along with a lot of other people were correct.

in spite of the referendum result, the spirit of the EU remains strong (link):

In a rare display of European consensus on migration, the EU launched a joint force Thursday to police the borders of the Schengen zone in response to leaders’ calls for stricter controls of the bloc’s external frontiers.

Bulgarian Prime Minister Boyko Borisov, hosting the event on the border with Turkey, said Europe had certainly not become a fortress, but “a yard with a broken fence” which the new patrols would try to repair.

European Commissioner Dimitris Avramopoulos jokingly referred to the man in charge of the European Border and Coast Guard (EBCG), Fabrice Leggeri, as a “five-star general.” Unlike its predecessor Frontex, which relied on staff loaned by EU member countries, Leggeri’s new force will have its own robust financial resources and personnel.

The biggest contributors to the border guard are Germany, France, Italy and Spain. Non-EU countries Norway, Switzerland and Iceland, which have signed up to Schengen, are also going to contribute, unlike the U.K. which opted out of Schengen.

Avramopoulos urged member countries to uphold their commitments, as some governments need to “think, behave and act in a more European way when it comes to migration policy.”

 

[Anju]

well it seems fairly straightforward to me. I would interpret it as meaning for example not being subject to EU laws, not being part of a deeply undemocratic and top-down kind of institution. More broadly I think there's a widespread feeling of dispossession, being ignored, powerlessness that, in the present climate, gets expressed as (or lumped in with) 'sovereignty'. These are the sorts of impressions I have got from hearing what people say about it. Obviously I can't speak for whoever you've been talking to.

I think when you look at attitudes to immigration it is reasonable to assume immigration was a major factor, so the EU immigration laws are what they are concerned with.

I gueas we will see when reaction to the Tory conference is looked at.

 

[Anju]

Can you spot the two groups in your posts?

No, but am happy for you to enlighten me.

 

[butchersapron]

No, but am happy for you to enlighten me.

You can't spot the two groups that you're talking about in your own post?

 

[Anju]

in spite of the referendum result, the spirit of the EU remains strong (link):

This is a different issue. They are looking at external borders.

 

[Anju]

You can't spot the two groups that you're talking about in your own post?

Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

There are people who had a reason and are happy to voice it and people who had a reason but feel uncomfortable about it.

Will check back later when I have eaten to see if you have made your view clearer.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh ffs the voters and the govt. Jesus christ. This is what you posted about. Literally.

 

[inva]

This is a different issue. They are looking at external borders.

a different issue to what? what is the EU that you support?

 

[redsquirrel]

I was wondering about this and have realised that when people were talking about sovereignty and being able to make our own laws they are referring to immigration laws.

Excellent that you can see into the minds of 17 millions people.

This is a different issue. They are looking at external borders.

Ah must be OK then. Obviously the lovely anti-racism of the EU doesn't apply to those external migrants.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

what is the EU that you support?

This is pretty much the one question I want all remain voters to answer. Just as many Leavers had no clear picture of what leaving the EU would look like, many Remain voters had no realistic picture of what the EU actually is or will become.

 

[Raheem]

This is pretty much the one question I want all remain voters to answer. Just as many Leavers had no clear picture of what leaving the EU would look like, many Remain voters had no realistic picture of what the EU actually is or will become.

It wasn't a vote about what the EU is or what you would like it to be. Really, it was just a question about what the disadvantages and advantages of the UK being in the EU look like side by side. Anyone who put "downfall of global capitalism" in their "advantages" column is a fool.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

It wasn't a vote about what the EU is or what you would like it to be. Really, it was just a question about what the disadvantages and advantages of the UK being in the EU look like side by side. Anyone who put "downfall of global capitalism" in their "advantages" column is a fool.

Not sure of anyone who said that. Actually am sure - absolutely no one. One thing is for sure though, anyone that put "protecting workers rights" in their advantages column for staying in the EU was a mug of the highest order.

 

[Raheem]

Not sure of anyone who said that. Actually am sure - absolutely no one. One thing is for sure though, anyone that put "protecting workers rights" in their advantages column for staying in the EU was a mug of the highest order.

I know a few people who still think that. They're fools, of course.

Anyway, can you briefly explain how you think leaving the EU will result in improved workers' rights?

 

[bimble]

Immigration control (and associated anti-immigrant sentiment) is great for business. It means you create an underclass of workers who have fewer rights, and helps disrupt working class solidarity.

ItWillNeverWork is this right then?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

can you briefly explain how you think leaving the EU will result in improved workers' rights?

It won't. Collective action by organised labour will, and the outcome of any such struggle is a function of the power balance between labour and capital at any given point in time. My view is that by centralising and institutionalising the power of capital into a continent-wide political block such as the EU, the relative power of labour will in the long run be diminished.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

ItWillNeverWork is this right then?

No. The removal of equal rights creates a class of people with fewer rights. This could happen both inside the EU and outside the EU - through direct policy, market forces, or both.

 

[paolo]

It won't. Collective action by organised labour will, and the outcome of any such struggle is a function of the power balance between labour and capital at any given point in time. My view is that by centralising and institutionalising the power of capital into a continent-wide political block such as the EU, the relative power of labour will in the long run be diminished.

Do you mean in the UK?

That staying in the EU would worsen our employment rights? But with Brexit they will be better?

(This is measurable. We'll be able to compare our rights, vs. EU, over time. You think ours will improve, in comparison? Really?)

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Do you mean in the UK?

That staying in the EU would worsen our employment rights? But with Brexit they will be better?

(This is measurable. We'll be able to compare our rights, vs. EU, over time. You think ours will improve, in comparison? Really?)

You don't get it. Genuine rights are not granted from on high, they are won from below. An EU that throws you a scrap now and again will starve you into submission when it pleases, as it has done with many countries already. This is about a latent power that is free to 'protect' you when it wishes, and perfectly willing to crush you when it opts to assert its dominance. You won't win against the EU. Ever. You might win against a weaker domestic force.

 

[discokermit]

(This is measurable. We'll be able to compare our rights, vs. EU, over time. You think ours will improve, in comparison? Really?)

no it isn't.

 

[DotCommunist]

two hundred and more years of labour struggle in britain, rights and workplace representation people actually died for. Long before there was an EU. I get this impression that some think the EU was what brought workers rights to brit worker. It was not. Nor has it ever been a keen defender of these rights except in tokenism forms

 

[paolo]

I'm not asking the question ideologically, or historically. I'm asking about the now.

Do you think employment rights will improve?

(You may do - that's fine. None of us can really know until five or ten years from now.)

 

[paolo]

no it isn't.

Employment rights aren't measurable? Or have I misunderstood?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I'm not asking the question ideologically, or historically. I'm asking about the now.

Do you think employment rights will improve?

(You may do - that's fine. None of us can really know until five or ten years from now.)

Impossible to say. In the immediate term I think the attacks will continue. I trust in the labour struggle though. I don't trust in the EU.