The biggest mistakes the British left made....

[ericjarvis]

I don't share Lletsa idea that the evidence supports harsher sentencing as a tool in crime reduction, I've certainly not seen evidence that convinces me of that, and I personally think that the majority of criminals don't anticipate being caught anyway. I think punishment can have an element of retribution. To take an extreme example I think it's right that Italian partisans shot Mussolini, and if Gaddaffi is toppled by the revolution there he too should be executed. Those, for me, are moral acts.

A trial has just started in Argentina against various generals involved in the ruling junta during The Dirty War. They're accused of kidnapping, murder, torture, of stealing people's babies to redistribute among supporters of the regime. Now, I don't think they present any risk whatsoever of re-offending, nor do I think punishing them will deter future coup plotters. However, punishing them is justice. They deserve punishment.

I totally agree.

There's one more important point though. To quote a God's Little Monkeys lyric "we live and learn by what we see, not by what we're meant to be". So we have to be aware of the example being set when the justice system decides a punishment.

This is the root of my opposition to the death penalty. It sets the example that it is appropriate to kill those you deem to have crossed a particular ethical line. Which would be fine if everyone shared precisely the same ethical and moral standards, but that's not the case. So when the state executes a criminal for an obscenely bloodthirsty murder it sends the unintended message that the official state position is that somebody who commits an offence against our most important values they deserve to die. However there are gangs around where the most important values are to be respected and to be part of the gang. So the message they recieve is that if somebody disrespects them or leaves the gang, then that person deserves to die. On the whole I would prefer them not to be learning that lesson.

So there are times when justice has to be tempered with good sense. I may feel that a particular criminal has forfeited any right to life, but I also want other criminals to see that taking a life is a line that society as a whole won't cross except in extreme emergency. Because for all I know, at some point they may see me or mine as having crossed the line, and on the whole street gangs don't have the resources to effectively administer life imprisonment.

 

[IMR]

My view is that attempting to judge the effect of different forms of punishment cannot be worked out solely by extrapolating from ones own experience. Unless you are a criminal there is something in your circumstances or thought processes that makes you different from the people who need to be deterred from crime. So there is no reason at all to assume that you provide a useful datapoint, let alone a starting point that everything can be extrapolated from.

I did indeed write in another post that the threat of prison had, on occasion, curbed my behaviour in the past. However, before that sentence I wrote: "I guess what strikes fear into one person might not do so for another."

So I hope that shows I was not indulging in purely egocentric reasoning, as your post suggests.

 

[frogwoman]

some of the tactics used by "militant" and its friends were dodgy when you get kicked out of an unemployed centre by your natural supporters you've got to consider who exactly are you standing for when even the poor can't stand you

what tactics were these? Being in possession of an offensive table?

 

[nino_savatte]

what tactics were these? Being in possession of an offensive table?

 

[The39thStep]

It's a false opposition though. Attitudes, morals, knowledge etc are situational and situation is influenced by attitudes, morals, knowledge.

I would love to see you trot out this sort of limp wristed abstract tosh at a meeting on an estate to discuss what practically to do about crime or asb Blagsta.

 

[Red Cat]

I would love to see you trot out this sort of limp wristed abstract tosh at a meeting on an estate to discuss what practically to do about crime or asb Blagsta.

Yeh, he clearly needs to work on his macho anti-intellectualism.

 

[phildwyer]

Yeh, he clearly needs to work on his macho anti-intellectualism.

Because workıng-class people wıll ınstantly attack anyone usıng words of more than three syllables ın theır presence. They're ımpulsıve lıke that.

 

[phildwyer]

See, this is where you show your true colours. You apparently hate students, and therefore assume I am one.

I assume that too tbf.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

And whether the words are saying something relevant.

 

[The39thStep]

Yeh, he clearly needs to work on his macho anti-intellectualism.

No he needs to work on confronting the issue that is presenting the problem rather than hiding in the sort of political cul de sac that is so popular on here

 

[Proper Tidy]

I agree with 39. If you have a community with a lot of crime and anti-social behaviour then the residents are going to be frightened and pissed off, and they will turn to the police and call for tougher punishments etc. If you came out with a load of abstract apologia then they will tell you to fuck off, and quite rightly so. Make the issue about creating/improving youth facilities, creating jobs and/or training opportunities, getting investment into the community, and you might just be taken seriously. Not if the residents are accused of being right-wing or seeking vengeance though.

 

[Red Cat]

But he's not arguing at a meeting - he's arguing on a BB.

 

[Blagsta]

I suggest certain people go back and re-read my posts, they seem to have got the wrong end of the stick. It's exactly creating and improving youth facilities, jobs etc that I'm arguing for.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I would love to see you trot out this sort of limp wristed abstract tosh at a meeting on an estate to discuss what practically to do about crime or asb Blagsta.

Why? Do you think people like my neighbours would drag Blagsta to a pyre for using multi-syllabic words? Or is it that you believe that they couldn't appreciate what he was saying, that they wouldn't understand that environment-influences-action-influences-environment?

Believe me, we all know that in terms of crime, that's the case.

 

[Proper Tidy]

This is the root of my opposition to the death penalty. It sets the example that it is appropriate to kill those you deem to have crossed a particular ethical line. Which would be fine if everyone shared precisely the same ethical and moral standards, but that's not the case. So when the state executes a criminal for an obscenely bloodthirsty murder it sends the unintended message that the official state position is that somebody who commits an offence against our most important values they deserve to die. However there are gangs around where the most important values are to be respected and to be part of the gang. So the message they recieve is that if somebody disrespects them or leaves the gang, then that person deserves to die. On the whole I would prefer them not to be learning that lesson.

It's an interesting point, but don't you think even without a death penalty it is all undermined somewhat by things like war and stuff. I'm not sure people are really guided by what standard the judiciary sets so much as what is deemed socially acceptable, sometimes only within a confined social circle, particularly if said social circle feels excluded from wider society. I think for most, including in societies with the death penalty, murder is generally regarded as a bad thing. I'd be quite confident about that.

I'm not favouring the death penalty btw, I just think attributing murder and violent crime to a state having the death penalty is backwards. The high murder and violent crime rates are not driven by the existence of the death penalty but by poverty, inequality, class.

 

[Blagsta]

39 steps, like most liberals, has a very dim view of working class people

 

[ViolentPanda]

Because workıng-class people wıll ınstantly attack anyone usıng words of more than three syllables ın theır presence. They're ımpulsıve lıke that.

Now now, phil, extrapolating what happens to you to cover every user of multi-syllabic words is irrational. Can't you get it into your head that they attack you because you're a twat, not because of your vocabulary?

 

[Red Cat]

39 steps, like most liberals, has a very dim view of working class people

I've never met any. What are they like?

 

[Blagsta]

I've never met any. What are they like?

Liberals? Mostly annoying.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No he needs to work on confronting the issue that is presenting the problem rather than hiding in the sort of political cul de sac that is so popular on here

The best strategies, as always, are the simplest. In this case the best strategy is always to attack on two fronts, so that you deal with the problem in hand in situ, as well as addressing causation.

Now, you might believe causation is a political cul-de-sac, but it very provably isn't.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've never met any. What are they like?

You know when you've had an accident, and you've grazed yourself, and a scab develops?
Remember how when you pick the scab there's a tiny bit of pleasure in with the pain of picking it?
That's what liberals are like, lot's of pain, little pleasure.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Why codge up that causation in such abstract terms though, even on a bulletin board. It's about jobs, homes, class.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I agree with 39. If you have a community with a lot of crime and anti-social behaviour then the residents are going to be frightened and pissed off, and they will turn to the police and call for tougher punishments etc. If you came out with a load of abstract apologia then they will tell you to fuck off, and quite rightly so. Make the issue about creating/improving youth facilities, creating jobs and/or training opportunities, getting investment into the community, and you might just be taken seriously. Not if the residents are accused of being right-wing or seeking vengeance though.

It's not so much "abstract apologia", as saying what a lot of people actual think, just in high-falutin' language. Concrete measures are great, but they do require a context (or, in terms of local authorities spending any money, a justification. ).

Oh, and "call the police"? Why? They generally can't be arsed round here, even if you ring 'em up and say "there's three kids bombing around on scooters, terrorising the local littl'uns and oldies", they'll only come out if you're in a neighbouring private street, or the "gated community" down the road.

 

[Red Cat]

I've never met any. What are they like?

No, working class people.

 

[Blagsta]

Why codge up that causation in such abstract terms though, even on a bulletin board. It's about jobs, homes, class.

What abstract terms? Is child neglect abstract? Is lack of decent mental health services abstract? Is lack of support for struggling parents abstract?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why codge up that causation in such abstract terms though, even on a bulletin board. It's about jobs, homes, class.

That's just the way some people roll!
And, of course, you need to bear in mind that Blagsta is addressing an audience on here that he believes (rightly or wrongly!) can follow his argument. it doesn't mean he'd address people living on 39's estate (or any unquantified audience) in those terms. He just knows that most folks on here can decode professional lingo.

 

[Red Cat]

Why codge up that causation in such abstract terms though, even on a bulletin board. It's about jobs, homes, class.

Is it so abstract to suggest that attitudes are situational? I thought that was pretty basic marxist stuff.

 

[LLETSA]

Oh, and "call the police"? Why? They generally can't be arsed round here, even if you ring 'em up and say "there's three kids bombing around on scooters, terrorising the local littl'uns and oldies", they'll only come out if you're in a neighbouring private street, or the "gated community" down the road.

That doesn't mean that most people's first response won't be to call the police though, no matter what the community. The relatives I've got in the area where I grew up, foo instance, are mostly getting old now and the areas a worse shithole than it's ever been. If they get trouble, what are they and their neighbours, also mostly getting on a bit, going to do other than call the police?

 

[LLETSA]

That's just the way some people roll!
And, of course, you need to bear in mind that Blagsta is addressing an audience on here that he believes (rightly or wrongly!) can follow his argument. it doesn't mean he'd address people living on 39's estate (or any unquantified audience) in those terms. He just knows that most folks on here can decode professional lingo.

Another problem: you can make all the proposals about jobs, imptoved services etc etc that you want, but what does it mean to people when the means to implement them are missing?

 

[nino_savatte]

Oh, and "call the police"? Why? They generally can't be arsed round here, even if you ring 'em up and say "there's three kids bombing around on scooters, terrorising the local littl'uns and oldies", they'll only come out if you're in a neighbouring private street, or the "gated community" down the road.

There's a reason why Scousers refer to the police as "bizzies", because they're too busy to come out. I was reminded of this again when yet another bike was nicked from my shed.