The biggest mistakes the British left made....

[Proper Tidy]

It's not so much "abstract apologia", as saying what a lot of people actual think, just in high-falutin' language. Concrete measures are great, but they do require a context (or, in terms of local authorities spending any money, a justification. ).

Oh, and "call the police"? Why? They generally can't be arsed round here, even if you ring 'em up and say "there's three kids bombing around on scooters, terrorising the local littl'uns and oldies", they'll only come out if you're in a neighbouring private street, or the "gated community" down the road.

It was the language and the abstractness I was taking issue with. I'm not sure people really need that much context to 'we would have less crime if we had better facilities and more jobs and less poverty' to understand the point. And people will and do turn to the police in this instance, even whilst at the same time often having very little faith in them. I've never been to a community meeting like that which hasn't had at least one police representative and calls for more police on the street and tougher punishments.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's an interesting point, but don't you think even without a death penalty it is all undermined somewhat by things like war and stuff. I'm not sure people are really guided by what standard the judiciary sets so much as what is deemed socially acceptable, sometimes only within a confined social circle, particularly if said social circle feels excluded from wider society. I think for most, including in societies with the death penalty, murder is generally regarded as a bad thing. I'd be quite confident about that.

I'm not favouring the death penalty btw, I just think attributing murder and violent crime to a state having the death penalty is backwards. The high murder and violent crime rates are not driven by the existence of the death penalty but by poverty, inequality, class.

It's always been the great contradiction of "civilisation", hasn't it, that "the state" can kill with relative impunity, but punishes fiercely anyone impinging on its' imperatives?
I think that's partly why people might attribute murderous motives to a state with a death penalty - because "civilised" states are supposed to somehow be "better".

As for violent crime and murder being driven by poverty, inequality and class, this is of course the case, but possibly not the whole story, because we can't get inside individual motivation except insofar as the criminal themselves can inform us, and we might not get an entirely unbiased story from them. There may be room for psycho-pathological explanations in there too, although I'm sure Blagsta will now tell us that those are all thoroughly rooted in developmental issues.

 

[Proper Tidy]

What abstract terms? Is child neglect abstract? Is lack of decent mental health services abstract? Is lack of support for struggling parents abstract?

No, and it is these terms you should use

 

[LLETSA]

I suggest certain people go back and re-read my posts, they seem to have got the wrong end of the stick. It's exactly creating and improving youth facilities, jobs etc that I'm arguing for.

Arguing for them on here makes no difference to anything in reality.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Is it so abstract to suggest that attitudes are situational? I thought that was pretty basic marxist stuff.

So are dialectics, but I prefer to apply Marxism rather than speak it. Know what I mean?

 

[Blagsta]

No, and it is these terms you should use

Fuck off telling me what I should and shouldn't say! Who do you think you are? Cheeky cunt.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That doesn't mean that most people's first response won't be to call the police though, no matter what the community.

I haven't claimed otherwise, Cathy.

The relatives I've got in the area where I grew up, foo instance, are mostly getting old now and the areas a worse shithole than it's ever been. If they get trouble, what are they and their neighbours, also mostly getting on a bit, going to do other than call the police?

I'm sure I don't know, I'm merely stating that the police (unsurprising) cannot be relied on to do their jobs.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Another problem: you can make all the proposals about jobs, imptoved services etc etc that you want...

I wasn't aware that anyone had mention "proposals".

...but what does it mean to people when the means to implement them are missing?

It very obviously means fuck-all.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There's a reason why Scousers refer to the police as "bizzies", because they're too busy to come out. I was reminded of this again when yet another bike was nicked from my shed.

There seems to be an attitude with the coppers around here that as long as they give you a crime number, they've fulfilled any legal duty they have.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Fuck off telling me what I should and shouldn't say! Who do you think you are? Cheeky cunt.

I was pointing out that you had switched from abstract language to absolutely on the ball concrete language. That you had switched from abstract to concrete in order to highlight the point you were making, and that it would probably be more effective to go straight for the concrete in the future. No need to get moody about it.

 

[LLETSA]

I haven't claimed otherwise, Cathy.



I'm sure I don't know, I'm merely stating that the police (unsurprising) cannot be relied on to do their jobs.

Maybe they can't, but the discussion is all a bit silly when you consider that for most people it's either rely on the police or nothing. Like many areas, where my elderly relatives live there are people you can call on to sort out problems if you're desperate enough, but most of them are wise enough to know what the probable consequences of that would be.

 

[Blagsta]

Part of the issue is that I have done these discussions time and time again, and I have ALWAYS argued for better housing, jobs, education, youth centres, mental health services etc etc. LLETSA and 39 Steps know this, yet persist in deliberately mis-reading me. Presumably so they can claim some kind of macho prole high ground. Crass workerism at its worst.

 

[Blagsta]

I was pointing out that you had switched from abstract language to absolutely on the ball concrete language. That you had switched from abstract to concrete in order to highlight the point you were making, and that it would probably be more effective to go straight for the concrete in the future. No need to get moody about it.

Go back and re-read my posts in their entirety.

 

[LLETSA]

I wasn't aware that anyone had mention "proposals".



It very obviously means fuck-all.

Not specific proposals-but what else are the kind of things mentioned above by Blagsta and others apart from abstract proposals, largely meaningless in nearly all real contexts for the simple reason of lack of political clout and will?

 

[phildwyer]

Go back and re-read my posts in their entirety.

Mıne too, whıle you're about ıt.

 

[LLETSA]

Part of the issue is that I have done these discussions time and time again, and I have ALWAYS argued for better housing, jobs, education, youth centres, mental health services etc etc. LLETSA and 39 Steps know this, yet persist in deliberately mis-reading me. Presumably so they can claim some kind of macho prole high ground. Crass workerism at its worst.

Argued with whom? What has any of it got to do with any actually existing community?

 

[Red Cat]

I'm really not sure why anyone needs to justify one comment said in response to one made by someone else in a similar vein with evidence of their political activity.

 

[LLETSA]

I'm really not sure why anyone needs to justify one comment said in response to one made by someone else in a similar vein with evidence of their political activity.

Nobody posting here needs to justify their political activity. I protested against the cuts yesterday; it's the first practical thing I've done in years. However, it remains the case that most people posting here do nothing at all to try to get the sensible measures suggested in this thread for combating crime implemented. As far as I can see, aside from the small numbers involved in the IWCA and its offshoots, and maybe individuals and groups within the likes of the SP, nobody actually does it anywhere, and even they are a world away from having any political power. Which means that such proposals are indeed meaningless in nearly all real communities.

 

[The39thStep]

Part of the issue is that I have done these discussions time and time again, and I have ALWAYS argued for better housing, jobs, education, youth centres, mental health services etc etc. LLETSA and 39 Steps know this, yet persist in deliberately mis-reading me. Presumably so they can claim some kind of macho prole high ground. Crass workerism at its worst.

I don't think anyone mis reads you, you just get uncomforable when posters don't agree with you. I think VP actually hit the nail on the head when he described your audience being posters on here . So the fact that you have

ALWAYS argued for better housing, jobs, education, youth centres, mental health services etc etc.

may have some currency on here as being 'right on'. What some of us try and do on here is to bring our experiences, conversations and activity outside of this bulletin board onto it. Hence the fact that being 'right on' doesn't offer any solutions or contribution to those in working class communities who want to do something about the issues that affect them.

Always reminds me of the SLP canvassing in Wythenshaw and as the joy riders burnt up the road they told those that they were canvassing that under socialism there would be no crime .

 

[The39thStep]

Why? Do you think people like my neighbours would drag Blagsta to a pyre for using multi-syllabic words? Or is it that you believe that they couldn't appreciate what he was saying, that they wouldn't understand that environment-influences-action-influences-environment?

Believe me, we all know that in terms of crime, that's the case.

As you answered your own last question perhaps I could answer the first . No they wouldn't in my experience but what they would probably say to him is 'so what is it that you are proposing that we do?

 

[Fedayn]

I protested against the cuts yesterday; it's the first practical thing I've done in years.

Careful now, before you know it you'll be quoting old Vladimir and Lev Davidovich.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Careful now, before you know it you'll be quoting old Vladimir and Lev Davidovich.

I've heard you quoting Lenin.

You heard me talk shit while puking in a taxi. Not saying the two are similar.

 

[Fedayn]

I've heard you quoting Lenin.

You heard me talk shit while puking in a taxi. Not saying the two are similar.

I'll readily admit to having quoted Lenin. And the two aren't similar, you're correct.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Touche.

 

[Fedayn]

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Until next time.

 

[likesfish]

for example took control of brighton trades council. its now completely ignored a distinct from almost ignored.
militant decide their postion before the meeting and vote as a bloc. fair enough but anyone not in the bloc finds everything stiched up before hand and don't bother going t another meeting. Bighton trades council is now seen by everyone as a militant hang out so losing any respect.
similar thing happened at Brigton unemployed families centre miltant voted as a bloc unfortunatly for them the volunteers and people who used the centre. Went hang on who are you? what do you do? and why should we listen to you?
being the conscience of the prolateriat and a link to the trades unions did'nt really cut it as an answer.
so had to walk.

 

[Proper Tidy]

for example took control of brighton trades council. its now completely ignored a distinct from almost ignored.
militant decide their postion before the meeting and vote as a bloc. fair enough but anyone not in the bloc finds everything stiched up before hand and don't bother going t another meeting. Bighton trades council is now seen by everyone as a militant hang out so losing any respect.
similar thing happened at Brigton unemployed families centre miltant voted as a bloc unfortunatly for them the volunteers and people who used the centre. Went hang on who are you? what do you do? and why should we listen to you?
being the conscience of the prolateriat and a link to the trades unions did'nt really cut it as an answer.
so had to walk.

People in democracy shocker.

 

[ericjarvis]

I'm not favouring the death penalty btw, I just think attributing murder and violent crime to a state having the death penalty is backwards. The high murder and violent crime rates are not driven by the existence of the death penalty but by poverty, inequality, class.

I'm not attributing murder to the death penalty. Merely pointing out that the message sent by the death penalty is more complex than simply "don't do these crimes or you will be killed".

 

[Proper Tidy]

I'm not attributing murder to the death penalty. Merely pointing out that the message sent by the death penalty is more complex than simply "don't do these crimes or you will be killed".

What message is it then?