The biggest mistakes the British left made....

[newbie]

tbh I'd forgotten that's the subject, so much has been spent on crime, criminals & victims.

 

[LLETSA]

back in the coldwar it made no sense .
the old ussr was a boot stamping on peoples faces forever anyone who defend it is an enemy of humanity

After Stalin, the USSR was actually one of the most socially peaceful societies in the world.

 

[LiamO]

I can personally vouch for the fact that even as late as 1991 (when the former USSR could in no way still be seriously described as a police state), the streets of Moscow were safer at night than those of Manchester.

The streets of Benghazi are still safer than the streets of Manchester!

 

[audiotech]

No one was ever called poltically correct in the 1980's. We referred to people as "sound". PC was invented, in this country, by your beloved Tory-supporting tabloid press.

Began in the US.

Even as early as 1793 the term was being used. This from J. Wilson's comments in 'U.S. Republic'.

The states, rather than the people, for whose sake the states exist, are frequently the objects which attract and arrest our principal attention... Sentiments and expressions of this inaccurate kind prevail in our common, even in our convivial, language... ‘The United States,’ instead of the ‘People of the United States,’ is the toast given. This is not politically correct.

Later the New Left, then feminists and later the academies. All in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

 

[nino_savatte]

Began in the US.

Even as early as 1793 the term was being used. This from J. Wilson's comments in 'U.S. Republic'.



Later the New Left, then feminists and later the academies. All in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

Sure but its use in this country originated in the Tory press who'd taken it from the US. I should have said "appropriated" rather than "invented". What the Right will often deny is that they have their own forms of PC.

 

[audiotech]

.....and the term 'gone mad' added of course.

 

[Demu]

The streets of Benghazi are still safer than the streets of Manchester!

Yes Liam, the pavements are in poor condition and do represent a trip hazard to the unwary traveller.

 

[audiotech]

On crime there is a clear correlation between the level of unemployment and the levels of crime.

This is the only graph I could find and it's for New Zealand rates, but I have seen similar for the UK, specifically from the 1980's through to the 1990's.

There are now 1 million unemployed age 16 to 24.

 

[audiotech]

As I've pointed out throughout this thread, I'm not comparing 'criminal and legal culture' (whatever that may be) nowadays and in the past. All I'm doing is staing what appears to be the case-that murder was less prevalent, as was violence generally and gangland culture etc-when the death penalty existed.

The five countries in the world with the highest homicide rates that do not impose the death penalty have nearly half the number of murders per 100 000 people than the five countries with the highest homicides rates which do impose the death penalty (United Nations Development program).

http://www.reprieve.org.uk/2010_02_17_DP_campaign_deterrence

 

[audiotech]

I'm not going looking for statistics while I'm at work.

Nor am I lying, although I'll give it you that I might be repeating conventional wisdom. Does anybody else have the statistics for the murder rate in the UK befoe and after the abolition of hanging?

There's this:

Home Secretary James Callaghan opened today's debate. He told a packed House the number of murders in Britain had varied between a low of 114 and a peak of 154 over the years between 1957 and 1968. These figures show that the murder rate is not soaring as a result of the abolition of capital punishment but remains remarkably stable.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/16/newsid_3258000/3258437.stm

.....and this sometime later from Brian Paddick

The murder rate in Britain has barely changed for decades (between 550 and 650 a year)...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ic-feel-safe-police-scared.html#ixzz181nCJuvF

If Paddick's figures are right then there would appear to be more murders, but the rate per population is not given?

Generally, in the Western world, murder rates in most countries have declined to quite a dehree during the 20th century and are 'now between 1-4 cases per 100,000 people per year' and according to Pieter Spierenburg, professor of historical criminology, 'murder rates per 100,000 in Europe have fallen over the centuries, from 35 per 100,000 in medieval times, to 20 in 1500 AD, 5 in 1700, to below two per 100,000 in 1900'.

Spierenburg attributes this long decline to what the German sociologist Norbert Elias called the “civilizing process”.

In the United States it is clearly markedly different to Europe. Access to guns probably being the significant factor here, but there are other factors and this article is worth a read on the subject:

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2009/11/09/091109crat_atlarge_lepore#ixzz1HBlUxbzj

 

[audiotech]

the left were still trying to justify the USSR long after anyone sane had realized whatever it was it was'nt the answer.
Plus unilateral disarmant that was a stupid policy and deeply unpopular

Not all the left justified the bureaucratic led USSR.

On 'unilateral nuclear disarmament', it should be remembered that when Labour dropped the policy they were still no more electable for it in 1992.

Also, at the time of unilateralism more than 60 Labour MPs supported the less highlighted European Nuclear Disarmament Campaign (END):

While END never captured the public consciousness in the manner of CND, it successfully built a broad coalition of unions, politicians and civil society groups across the continent in favour of a European nuclear-free zone "from Poland to Portugal" The main focus was to rid Europe of short-range "battlefield" or tactical nuclear weapons, which were seen as increasing the chances of a nuclear exchange

http://www.spokesmanbooks.com/Spokesman/PDF/Coates100.pdf

The difference here being that this was a multilateralist movement, but it should be noted, mainly supported by left-leaning Labour MPs, such as Robin Cook.

There was tangible success too, by putting pressure on the superpowers, who eventually withdrew tactical nuclear weapons from Europe by the end of the 1980s.

As for the nuclear weapons issue generally?

A growing number of military experts are voicing scepticism about the current cost and strategic benefit of a defence system [Trident] designed for the cold war era. Just delaying implementation of Trident for five years could save £5 billion.

http://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/CASD.pdf

I'd like to see the whole thing scrapped of course.

Afterall and think on, how much did Polaris cost the British public over many years and what use was that?

 

[likesfish]

trident should be scrapped now it and polaris did their job which was too keep the cold war cold keep America invovled in europe.
Its a fig leaf now that serves no useful purpose.

 

[LLETSA]

There's this:



.....and this sometime later from Brian Paddick



If Paddick's figures are right then there would appear to be more murders, but the rate per population is not given?

Generally, in the Western world, murder rates in most countries have declined to quite a dehree during the 20th century and are 'now between 1-4 cases per 100,000 people per year' and according to Pieter Spierenburg, professor of historical criminology, 'murder rates per 100,000 in Europe have fallen over the centuries, from 35 per 100,000 in medieval times, to 20 in 1500 AD, 5 in 1700, to below two per 100,000 in 1900'.



In the United States it is clearly markedly different to Europe. Access to guns probably being the significant factor here, but there are other factors and this article is worth a read on the subject:

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2009/11/09/091109crat_atlarge_lepore#ixzz1HBlUxbzj

As I keep having to say, the reason I'm not interested all that much in statistics on all this is that I'm not arguing for the reintroduction of the death penalty, nor think that there's any danger of it being reintroduced (short of, as I said, a complete breakdown in the system of values currently dominant.) I did voice a suspicion that the murder rate had risen in this country since the death penalty was abolished-something that those vehemently (or even hysterically) opposed to it seemed ready to concede, but, as I said (why do I keep having to repeat myself?) we can debate the reasons for this forever. I also noted that there have been societies with the death penalty where the murder rate was very low, as was the level of organised crime and violence in society generally. Again, the reasons for this can be debated, and as you point out, there are other societies with the death penalty where this is not the case.

It's things like this that make life interesting, I suppose.

 

[The39thStep]

funny thread. Quite interesting, though in some ways more for what hasn't been said than what has.

We've heard about the effects of smack, crack, poverty, inequality and class, youth centres, mental health and dialectics but no-one has got round to mentioning the biggest driver of the lot. At least in terms of victim perception and the resulting fear.

Alcohol.

Why is that?

 

[ericjarvis]

I agree, alcohol probably is the biggest mistake of the left.

Absolutely. If we all stopped holding meetings in pubs the revolution could be planned, implemented, and completed successfully by 2014.

 

[DotCommunist]

alcoholism never stopped the bolsheviks.

 

[past caring]

Absolutely. If we all stopped holding meetings in pubs the revolution could be planned, implemented, and completed successfully by 2014.

Most of the pubs we used to meet in when I was in the SWP are now flats (or in the case of the Walmer Castle, burnt out and on its way to becoming flats). Gentrification - onwards and upwards, comrades, onwards and upwards.

 

[ericjarvis]

EJ's argument is undermined by the fact that we actually had fewer gangland killings, murders of police informers etc etc, when we did have state sanctioned killing via the death penalty. It's also undermined by the fact that societies have existed where the death penalty existed and there were no gangland killings at all, and virtually no murders of the many police informers. This was the situation in the former USSR and its satellites. I'm not saying that they were desirable societies; I'm merely stating the truth of the matter, which is that EJ's argument is a gross over-simplification.

Really? Have you got stats to back that up, because I don't recall ever seeing any statistics that cover trends in "gangland killings" and "murders of police informers" as specific categories of offence. In fact, from what I recall of the activities of the Krays, the Richardsons, and the various Glasgow gangs, both were pretty common back in the 50s and early 60s.

 

[audiotech]

Absolutely. If we all stopped holding meetings in pubs the revolution could be planned, implemented, and completed successfully by 2014.

Behind the times, it seems to be cafe's and community centres these days, although there are a few exceptions.

 

[The39thStep]

The SWP began to go downhill when it cancelled the mid meeting beer breaks in the early 80s

 

[audiotech]

The SWP began to go downhill when it cancelled the mid meeting beer breaks in the early 80s

The scowls from those drinking orange juice used to piss me off. A mate on the dole, bought a bottle of his home brewed wine to one meeting, pissed off both the juice drinkers and the landlord of the pub.

 

[Proper Tidy]

We have a fag beak half way through our branch meetings and regular stops to get another pint from the bar.

That's how we roll.

 

[LLETSA]

Really? Have you got stats to back that up, because I don't recall ever seeing any statistics that cover trends in "gangland killings" and "murders of police informers" as specific categories of offence. In fact, from what I recall of the activities of the Krays, the Richardsons, and the various Glasgow gangs, both were pretty common back in the 50s and early 60s.

Did I say they were specific categories of offence?

And what's this obsession with statistics? I've explained only a few posts ago why I'm not, in this case, particularly interested in statistics.

Nor did I deny that gangland culture and violent crime existed when we had the death penalty (and for the nth time, I'm not arguing for its reintroduction). However, any cultural product of the day, whether it be a film, a novel or a newspaper account of the time, presents you with a picture of a society where murder still shocked the nation and organised crime figures did not usually sort out their differences with automatic weapons. Make of that what you wish.

 

[dennisr]

We have a fag beak half way through our branch meetings and regular stops to get another pint from the bar.

That's how we roll.

prolier than thou

 

[chilango]

We have a fag beak half way through our branch meetings and regular stops to get another pint from the bar.

That's how we roll.

Is there an SP branch in North Wales?

..or do you have to commute?

(Not a sarky question...I'm from up there and am curious...)

 

[Proper Tidy]

Is there an SP branch in North Wales?

..or do you have to commute?

(Not a sarky question...I'm from up there and am curious...)

Yes mate, in Wrexham. And a sort-of one in Bangor.

 

[chilango]

Yes mate, in Wrexham. And a sort-of one in Bangor.

That's good to hear.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Diolch