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The biggest mistakes the British left made....

I gave you a considered response, which you called 'mealy mouthed'. Now I really shouldn't rise to it, but you're always the one who starts with the insults, normally after missing the point of a well-reasoned response to one of your inanities.


Have you ever thought about auditioning for Radio Four's The Now Show, LBJ? You have the same laughable tendency as those it features to assume that your enlightened beliefs and condescending prejudices are so self-evidently correct that anybody (in other words the vast majority) who doesn't agree is to be automatically branded a fool.

And all you are when it comes down to it is another patronising internet bogus left liberal with your 23000 posts in four years. Get a job.
 
You see, this, I think is where we part company.

We agree that the failure of the left is its dismissal of working class concerns, its inability to have anything other than its explanation for crime heard and its consequent appearance as an apologist for criminals. But listening to working class concerns and coming up with practical solutions to those concerns does not equate to agreeing with any old reactionary solution presented in response. Policies should be about what works, not simply what people want.

I would argue that a demand for punishment is not necessarily a priority amongst working class communities that suffer high crime levels and that a higher priority might well be for crime reduction, particularly where that manifests itself in the near term and quite visibly. So yes, it is Blagsta's better housing and better drug treatment - but it's also the things that left have never bothered with (or has seen as beneath them) - better street lighting, resident caretakers on estates, a proper concierge system, better youth facilities etc. Practical things that can be campaigned for in the here and now which make a difference but which the traditional left does not dirty its hands.

My own view (not the IWCA one, though there's a few would agree) is that we go for a different drugs policy - not legalisation as such, but heroin/crack/meth whatever, freely available to addicts via their GP/drugs walk-in centre. And a huge, parallel, investment in treatment programmes for those that want to get clear. This is no "drugs liberalisation" policy for the sake of liberalisation but an attempt to break the connection between drug use and crime - the fact that there would no longer be any need to whore or rob etc to pay for a habit would have a marked reduction on crime levels. There would, no doubt, be some who refused to take the opportunity and who would continue to prey on the community - but they would, I think, then become a much smaller minority and one which the community could more readily deal with.

Yes
 
We can and do know, as a polls have shown that a majority of people (a narrow majority, but even so) favour the reinstatement of capital punishment. That's as clear an indicator as you'll ever need.

Not without seeing the data behind the polls, matey!
 
Have you ever thought about auditioning for Radio Four's The Now Show, LBJ? You have the same laughable tendency as those it features to assume that your enlightened beliefs and condescending prejudices are so self-evidently correct that anybody (in other words the vast majority) who doesn't agree is to be automatically branded a fool.

And all you are when it comes down to it is another patronising internet bogus left liberal with your 23000 posts in four years. Get a job.

You nasty piece of shit.
 
It appears, at least on the surface, that as people gained more rights and improved their living and working conditions/general prosperity, the murder rate fell sharply. (Can you point to where I've disputed any of that?) It appears that after capital punishment was abolished, at least in the UK, it began to rise again despite a continuing relative prosperity (even if we are now discovering that rising living standards during the past thirty years or so were largely built on sand.)

So, if I'm getting this, you're saying that rising living standards in the 1800s caused less crime, but rising living standards post 1800s have not caused less crime? I'm asking this because it's pretty evident that on the whole, based on mortality rates, education levels etc living standards have gone up and up and up for the last 200 years, while crime has followed a curvilinear pattern where it fell from the start of the Industrial Revolution and then started rising in the 70s and 80s.
 
I'd add to that "tearing itself apart in public for a near-whole decade".
And "forsaking class politics for the chimera of identity politics"

Yeah, but there's a reason for that. Thatcherism, destruction of industry and other sites of shared experience (pubs, community centres etc), plus Labour turning away from working class.
 
Was there a causal relationship between the two, though, or is it more reasonable, as well as more in line with historical evidence, to say that social factors unconnected to the death penalty moratorium were responsible?



By all accounts? Really?


By many accounts then. As for you first question, I have no idea, and nor has anybody else, even if you can point to a whole variety of factors that suggest you may be right. What Michel Houllebecq calls a mass consumer culture based on sex and violence, and expressed in a wide variety of ways.
 
I gave you a considered response, which you called 'mealy mouthed'. Now I really shouldn't rise to it, but you're always the one who starts with the insults, normally after missing the point of a well-reasoned response to one of your inanities.

Funny innit, when it's LLETSA with the liberal arguments!
 
Oh noes, he's calling me names. Dear oh dear what am I to do???


Come back when you know your arse from your mouth, eh, there's a good lad.



You'll only be satisfied when I start mouthing the same condescending liberal cliches you do. Get back to your little smug circle of student wankers, you prick.
 
I think the deterrent element of the death penalty is neither here not there tbh. I don't think it makes much difference to the levels of violent crime. I do think a lot of the liberal case against harsh punishments for violent crimes smacks a bit of elitism over the "the plebs with their kneejerk calls for vengeance!"

IMO, justice is not just a neutral social tool for deterring criminals, preventing recidivism and rehabilitating people, it's also about making everyone else feel safe AND that appropriate punishment has been give (justice done). The latter's a legitimate demand, regardless of worries about reoffending.
 
You'll only be satisfied when I start mouthing the same condescending liberal cliches you do. Get back to your little smug circle of student wankers, you prick.

See, this is where you show your true colours. You apparently hate students, and therefore assume I am one. You assume I'll only be satisfied when you "start mouthing the same condescending liberal cliches you do", failing to spot the numerous occasions where I've asked you to back up your gut feelings, intuitions and anecdotes with something approaching data and evidence, then proceeding to admit you don't care about evidence and science.

And you have the fucking cheek to accuse me of being condescending?
 
It appears that after capital punishment was abolished, at least in the UK, it began to rise again...

It's more accurate to say that the murder rate had already started to rise in the post-WW2 era. various reasons have been put forth, such as greater availability of unregistered firearms, many more people with killing skills in the general public, post-war relationship failure leading to marital violence, and even Rock 'n' Roll.
So, the rot had already set in before the Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Act 1965 introduced a moratorium , let alone before the actual abolition in 1969.
 
It's more accurate to say that the murder rate had already started to rise in the post-WW2 era. various reasons have been put forth, such as greater availability of unregistered firearms, many more people with killing skills in the general public, post-war relationship failure leading to marital violence, and even Rock 'n' Roll.
So, the rot had already set in before the Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Act 1965 introduced a moratorium , let alone before the actual abolition in 1969.

Why do you bother? LLETSA's already made it perfectly clear he's not interested in evidence.
 
I think the deterrent element of the death penalty is neither here not there tbh. I don't think it makes much difference to the levels of violent crime. I do think a lot of the liberal case against harsh punishments for violent crimes smacks a bit of elitism over the "the plebs with their kneejerk calls for vengeance!"

IMO, justice is not just a neutral social tool for deterring criminals, preventing recidivism and rehabilitating people, it's also about making everyone else feel safe AND that appropriate punishment has been give (justice done). The latter's a legitimate demand, regardless of worries about reoffending.

So, your answer is populism? Give the crowd all the blood and gore they want?
 
But if this were due to abolition, you would expect similar rises to follow abolition in other countries. Have a look at the figures. I have, and if you like you could trust me when I say that there is no pattern of murder rates rising after abolition. This is what leads me to the conclusion that that cause of the rise in the UK in the 60s and 70s was very probably not abolition of the death penalty. There are other areas that need looking at, because I see no good reason why the death penalty should act as a deterrent in the UK but not elsewhere.

Like others in the thread, in your usual rush to nail what you see as a reactionary argument (despite the reactionary nature of your authoritarian liberalism) you are making the mistake of thinking that I am arguing that capital punishment is a deterrent. Like all of you, I have no way of knowing if it is or isn't. That's why I simply made an observation that the murder rate appears to have risen in the UK after the abolition of capital punishment.

It's amazing how this subject animates some people.
 
How can we know for sure whether the demand for criminals to receive adequate punishment is a priority in working class communities? I hear it all the time in this particular community and others that I know well, but I have no way of knowing if it is a priority for the majority.

Well, as I said, the focus of my post is about where the left have gone wrong and where those that profess a pro-working class politics might learn from the left's mistakes. I think there's a lot of truth in the adage that most people recognise and prefer the genuine article, so there's little mileage for us in adopting the clothes of the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade even if that were what the majority in working class communities affected by crime actually wanted.

But the IWCA experience has been that working class communities - certainly in those meetings we have called or been involved in - quickly move beyond calls for harsher punishment to actually discussing practical solutions that might be achievable in the here and now. That might well be because most people are able to recognise that questions of an appropriate level of punishment are not going to be resolved on a local level - but it's also true to say that communities have needed little prompting from us to arrive at that conclusion. The real role of the IWCA was to facilitate meetings/campaigns in the first place and then focus attention on those suggestions that we might actually have a chance of implementing - clearly, whatever the views of individuals involved might be, it doesn't take a genius to work out that a community meeting has better prospects of campaigning successfully to get the council to evict the squatted crack-house than it does of persuading the council to lobby central government for 10 year sentences for anyone caught dealing crack. Those campaigns with which the IWCA were involved were able to work that kind of thing out for themselves....
 
See, this is where you show your true colours. You apparently hate students, and therefore assume I am one. You assume I'll only be satisfied when you "start mouthing the same condescending liberal cliches you do", failing to spot the numerous occasions where I've asked you to back up your gut feelings, intuitions and anecdotes with something approaching data and evidence, then proceeding to admit you don't care about evidence and science.

And you have the fucking cheek to accuse me of being condescending?


You'll always be a fucking student. Fuck off.
 
Yeah, but there's a reason for that. Thatcherism, destruction of industry and other sites of shared experience (pubs, community centres etc), plus Labour turning away from working class.
don't disagree with any of that-But i'd say leftist politicians TU leaders etc,made real howlers on top of that
 
Why do you bother? LLETSA's already made it perfectly clear he's not interested in evidence.


Yes-and clearly explained why not; as it seems necessary to keep repeating, it's because I'm presenting surface appearances that most people seem to accept as fact on the issue. I don't know any more than you do what the facts of the matter are.

Try reading the posts before spouting the customary knee-jerk responses.
 
It's more accurate to say that the murder rate had already started to rise in the post-WW2 era. various reasons have been put forth, such as greater availability of unregistered firearms, many more people with killing skills in the general public, post-war relationship failure leading to marital violence, and even Rock 'n' Roll.
So, the rot had already set in before the Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Act 1965 introduced a moratorium , let alone before the actual abolition in 1969.



Yes-but how sharp was the rise before and after abolition?
 
So, your answer is populism? Give the crowd all the blood and gore they want?

If you like. I think it's damaging socially to have a system that totally disregard the idea that punishment makes victims feel better. Instead it decides they should get money they usually don't want to make them feel better.
 
So, your answer is populism? Give the crowd all the blood and gore they want?


There we have it-the patronising assumption that those who want to see justice done are thirsting for blood and gore, when it's usually the blood and gore caused by the criminal that causes them revulsion.

Oh to be a cloistered liberal.
 
You'll always be a fucking student. Fuck off.
LOL

Lletsa earlier today

081123111856.jpg
 

I am now going to be very dismissive:

Example 1 is based on a polling sample, in the case of the UK poll (which is the germane sample) of 1,000, and gives no data whatsoever on the demographic breakdown of the sample. The pdf linked to at the bottom of the page is somewhat more interesting.

Example 2 gives no sample size, although it does give a lot of raw data.

Example 3 , with no sample size given, points up the unreliability of small sample polls. It finds a drastically different result from a sample in 2006 than example 1 found in 2007.

Example 4, well, no sample size, but at least highlights degree of support.


This is why I dislike polls. They are snapshots with minimal data, so it is often difficult to know if any potential confounding factors were present. Small sample size also means that any number of demographic factors can influence the result, even if random-selection phone polling is used
 
I agree that polls are of limited value. To maximise their value, the best thing to do is to add them all together and see what you get.
 
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