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The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

kabbes said:
Have you noticed a problem with getting a vet?
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I'll be able to tell you that the next time I need to take Ziggy to a vet, although I didn't realise the entire accuracy of the story could be instantly thrown into doubt if my personal experience didn't match the concerns expressed in the story.
 
editor said:
I'll be able to tell you that the next time I need to take Ziggy to a vet, although I didn't realise the entire accuracy of the story could be instantly thrown into doubt if my personal experience didn't match the concerns expressed in the story.
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It would just be nice if any of these stories came from some kind of authentic perspective or personal expertise rather than just trawling the liberal press for “omigehd!” stories that somebody somewhere has found an angle to blame on Brexit.

You had that with the music industry stuff and I for one took your points on board, recognising just how much the Tory government has unnecessarily fucked over musicians just for the sake of their ideology. But you dilute those good points when you suggest e.g. that a marginal change in the cost of 0.5% of the input factor into bollards has somehow added 10% to their costs, or pick some story that is speculative and in an area that you don’t really care about just to try to create a “gotcha” moment.

I suspect you’ll just get all offended at being questioned now but on the off-chance you might actually be interested in how this is coming across, there it is.
 
kabbes said:
I think before taking breathless newspaper reports on board as if they are gospel truth, it helps to engage at least a modicum of critical faculty, to be honest. Editor keeps on just throwing us out these reports without any sign of engagement with the accuracy of what each one is claiming and every time this is questioned, he first gets a bit arsey and then just ignores it and moves onto the next report.

That vet report is mostly actually pointing out that lockdown has seen an unfortunate and ill-advised explosion in pet ownership (which includes in no small part those who have not had pets before). I can well believe that it will be hard to accommodate all these extra pets, with or without Brexit. But there have been some interesting advances made too in the last few years in online vets, which can help pick up some of that slack. What’s more, with animal shelters now filling up with unwanted lockdown pets that in many cases may end up being put down, I think I want to see ground reports of how all this plays out in practice before I just buy that Brexit has deprived us all of vets.
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I’ve not read the article but my understanding is vet shortages are for new veterinary checks required for transporting animals between uk / eu. Not for getting your pooch seen to.
 
Supine said:
I’ve not read the article but my understanding is vet shortages are for new veterinary checks required for transporting animals between uk / eu. Not for getting your pooch seen to.
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The article conflates the two. Not least because newspapers are utterly shit at dealing with anything remotely technically challenging, which is why quoting them as evidence of anything is so pointless.
 
kabbes said:
The article conflates the two. Not least because newspapers are utterly shit at dealing with anything remotely technically challenging, which is why quoting them as evidence of anything is so pointless.
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can’t disagree with the state of journalism. the concept of vet shortages due to a huge extra requirement and no planning to fix the issue sounds very real though. very much Brexit / Tory related I’d imagine :)
 
The39thStep said:
Nope but I was going to ask Mr Ski about his detailed knowledge of electric car production in the U.K. .
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If you were going to ask me about anything then it might be helpful to either quote me or mention me The39thStep otherwise how am I supposed to know?

Anyhow for an answer my knowledge of electric car production in the UK is limited because I don't drive & don't really give a fuck about cars but I do know that the amount the government paid to Nissan to keep their Sunderland electric car thing going has been kept secret so one can wonder how much is Nissan been granted to allow production? I don't know & nor does anyone else.
Please next time you want to ask me a question or quote me then please have the decency to quote or mention. Otherwise I won't know about it.
Thanks. :thumbs:
 
Supine said:
can’t disagree with the state of journalism. the concept of vet shortages due to a huge extra requirement and no planning to fix the issue sounds very real though. very much Brexit / Tory related I’d imagine :)
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The thing is, I’m pretty sure editor isn’t actually a fan of transporting food animals between jurisdictions. As an advocate of vegetarianism, he should be welcoming things that make it harder for UK capital to subcontract its meat-rearing to jurisdictions with fewer welfare controls and then reimport to the UK to astroturf its product. This is what I mean by engaging with what is reported rather than just putting it up there.
 
MrSki said:
If you were going to ask me about anything then it might be helpful to either quote me or mention me The39thStep otherwise how am I supposed to know?

Anyhow for an answer my knowledge of electric car production in the UK is limited because I don't drive & don't really give a fuck about cars but I do know that the amount the government paid to Nissan to keep their Sunderland electric car thing going has been kept secret so one can wonder how much is Nissan been granted to allow production? I don't know & nor does anyone else.
Please next time you want to ask me a question or quote me then please have the decency to quote or mention. Otherwise I won't know about it.
Thanks. :thumbs:
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Wasn’t intentional, I’m in a bar watching football and didn’t put the @ in .
 
two sheds said:
The referendum was before the 2017 election where there was a reasonable chance of a Labour government being in charge. So 'Brexiter's couldn't have totally predicted the tories being in power.
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The 2017 election was unscheduled, though. In fact, many people thought an election was impossible because of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act.
 
kabbes said:
The thing is, I’m pretty sure editor isn’t actually a fan of transporting food animals between jurisdictions. As an advocate of vegetarianism, he should be welcoming things that make it harder for UK capital to subcontract its meat-rearing to jurisdictions with fewer welfare controls and then reimport to the UK to astroturf its product. This is what I mean by engaging with what is reported rather than just putting it up there.
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Sounds like you have beef with editor rather than the story. I’m also a vegetarian but realise vets are also used for zoo’s, pets, race horses etc etc. Brexit has made it all more difficult. It might not be the biggest issue in the world but it’s just one of many issues that Brexit has made worse. At least some people get to enjoy the colour of their passports i suppose.
 
The39thStep said:
Wasn’t intentional, I’m in a bar watching football and didn’t put the @ in .
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Well there was also a space between Mr & Ski but I will believe you this time. :D

Also am a bit pissed so will call it a day. What footie are you watching?
 
Supine said:
Sounds like you have beef with editor rather than the story. I’m also a vegetarian but realise vets are also used for zoo’s, pets, race horses etc etc. Brexit has made it all more difficult. It might not be the biggest issue in the world but it’s just one of many issues that Brexit has made worse. At least some people get to enjoy the colour of their passports i suppose.
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I honestly have no beef. I’m just a bit fed up in this thread that he seems to be posting up newspaper report after newspaper report with no real critical engagement.
 
kabbes said:
It would just be nice if any of these stories came from some kind of authentic perspective or personal expertise rather than just trawling the liberal press for “omigehd!” stories that somebody somewhere has found an angle to blame on Brexit.

You had that with the music industry stuff and I for one took your points on board, recognising just how much the Tory government has unnecessarily fucked over musicians just for the sake of their ideology. But you dilute those good points when you suggest e.g. that a marginal change in the cost of 0.5% of the input factor into bollards has somehow added 10% to their costs, or pick some story that is speculative and in an area that you don’t really care about just to try to create a “gotcha” moment.

I suspect you’ll just get all offended at being questioned now but on the off-chance you might actually be interested in how this is coming across, there it is.
Click to expand...
Ah. So it's the liberal press to blame. Would you rather I sourced stories from the Daily Mail? Is that what you'd prefer?
 
kabbes said:
I honestly have no beef. I’m just a bit fed up in this thread that he seems to be posting up newspaper report after newspaper report with no real critical engagement.
Click to expand...
You asking if I've got a pet is what counts for 'critical engagement' yes?

But I'm enjoying this Trumpian disregard for any story that challenges your views. Don't like the story? Blame it on the liberal press!

kabbes said:
The thing is, I’m pretty sure editor isn’t actually a fan of transporting food animals between jurisdictions. As an advocate of vegetarianism, he should be welcoming things that make it harder for UK capital to subcontract its meat-rearing to jurisdictions with fewer welfare controls and then reimport to the UK to astroturf its product. This is what I mean by engaging with what is reported rather than just putting it up there.
Click to expand...
I'd like there to be more vets looking after animal welfare, not fewer. Not sure what my diet has to do with all this, mind.
 
What views do you think are my views? My only expressed view here is that quoting newspaper reports — any newspaper reports — as if they comprise credible sources of information about complex issues just shows up the one quoting as somebody that doesn’t understand how research actually works. There’s a good reason why newspapers are not accepted as citations for anything other than straightforward reports of events within peer-reviewed articles. Putting up what amounts to opinion pieces from newspapers as if they show, well, anything really just makes you look bad. The Guardian is no better than the Mail in that regard.
 
kabbes said:
What views do you think are my views? My only expressed view here is that quoting newspaper reports — any newspaper reports — as if they comprise credible sources of information about complex issues just shows up the one quoting as somebody that doesn’t understand how research actually works. There’s a good reason why newspapers are not accepted as citations for anything other than straightforward reports of events within peer-reviewed articles. Putting up what amounts to opinion pieces from newspapers as if they show, well, anything really just makes you look bad. The Guardian is no better than the Mail in that regard.
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Right. So you think all newspaper articles can be dismissed out of hand unless they contain 'peer reviewed research,' and any direct statements from those affected from Brexit should be completely discounted, unless its backed by sufficient studies and documentation?


Unless they're pro-Brexit presumably.
 
editor said:
Right. So you think all newspaper articles can be dismissed out of hand unless they contain 'peer reviewed research,' and any direct statements from those affected from Brexit should be completely discounted, unless its backed by sufficient studies and documentation?


Unless they're pro-Brexit presumably.
Click to expand...
I don't like kabbes and we have each other on ignore. But I peeked behind the curtain and you mischaracterise what he's saying about journal articles, which is they view newspaper articles as of limited evidentiary value. He's not saying anything of the sort you claim.
 
If you expect urban to become a peer reviewed information source i think you will be very disappointed.

There could be a good discussion about which media sources are credible but I’m not sure that’s what you want.

I just read today that The Daily Mail isn’t allowed as a citation source on Wikipedia. I have no idea if the Guardian or Telegraph are the same. It’d be interesting to know who can be trusted.
 
Supine said:
If you expect urban to become a peer reviewed information source i think you will be very disappointed.

There could be a good discussion about which media sources are credible but I’m not sure that’s what you want.

I just read today that The Daily Mail isn’t allowed as a citation source on Wikipedia. I have no idea if the Guardian or Telegraph are the same. It’d be interesting to know who can be trusted.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone is expecting urban to become a peer reviewed information source.

But it would be good, IMO, if people gave a little thought sometimes to the origins of the stories they post up here and engage in a minimum of critical thinking about why those stories say what they do, rather than just post up any old stuff which appears to support their position.

It would also be good if people avoided, or at least attempted to avoid, the unnecessary polarisation of discussion we often see here, when any questioning of stories or sources is immediately dismissed as Trumpian disregard for any story that challenges your views, especially when the dismisser doesn't even take the trouble to establish what those views are, but simply assumes or creates their own ridiculous parody.
 
So it's Brexit to blame.

The Road Haulage Association (RHA) estimated the UK was 60,000 drivers short of the number needed to operate properly, even before Covid. They now put that figure as high as 100,000. The RHA puts the bulk of the blame on Brexit.

Since then there have been moves to shift that blame on to the growing number of drivers in self-isolation after being in contact with Covid. But mounting evidence suggest that’s not the main factor.

The Road Haulage Association conducted a survey of its members and a report posted on its website yesterday said the results showed the main reason perceived for the current crisis was Brexit.

The report said 58% of those who responded said Brexit was a reason behind the shortage. It stated: ‘’The current vacancy levels additionally show that there are not enough UK drivers who are trained and currently willing to be employed to fill the vacancies in the industry. From the perspective of SMEs, Brexit is the main reason for the driver shortage, followed by retiring drivers and drivers leaving for another industry.’’

www.businessforscotland.com

Brexit to blame for food shortage crisis … not 'pingdemic'

Brexit remains the main factor to blame for food shortages in shops and supermarkets as attempts to make the so-called ''pingdemic'' a scapegoat are increasingly undermined. Warnings about empty shelves in shops and supermarkets began when Boris Johnson imposed his woeful Brexit trade deal which...
www.businessforscotland.com www.businessforscotland.com
 
editor said:
So it's Brexit to blame.

The Road Haulage Association (RHA) estimated the UK was 60,000 drivers short of the number needed to operate properly, even before Covid. They now put that figure as high as 100,000. The RHA puts the bulk of the blame on Brexit.

Since then there have been moves to shift that blame on to the growing number of drivers in self-isolation after being in contact with Covid. But mounting evidence suggest that’s not the main factor.

The Road Haulage Association conducted a survey of its members and a report posted on its website yesterday said the results showed the main reason perceived for the current crisis was Brexit.

The report said 58% of those who responded said Brexit was a reason behind the shortage. It stated: ‘’The current vacancy levels additionally show that there are not enough UK drivers who are trained and currently willing to be employed to fill the vacancies in the industry. From the perspective of SMEs, Brexit is the main reason for the driver shortage, followed by retiring drivers and drivers leaving for another industry.’’

www.businessforscotland.com

Brexit to blame for food shortage crisis … not 'pingdemic'

Brexit remains the main factor to blame for food shortages in shops and supermarkets as attempts to make the so-called ''pingdemic'' a scapegoat are increasingly undermined. Warnings about empty shelves in shops and supermarkets began when Boris Johnson imposed his woeful Brexit trade deal which...
www.businessforscotland.com www.businessforscotland.com
Click to expand...

Well here is the actual report from the RHA. It makes interesting reading and makes it clear Brexit is a minor factor in the driver shortages area.
 
TopCat said:
Well here is the actual report from the RHA. It makes interesting reading and makes it clear Brexit is a minor factor in the driver shortages area.
Click to expand...
It actually says:

The driver shortage for HGVs is hitting crisis level in the UK.

A combination of factors (many of them long-standing) has contributed to the current situation. Recovery from Covid 19 is increasing demand across supply chains, the impact is already being seen with the increased opening of “non-essential” retail and parts of the hospitality sector in recent weeks. The recovery is exacerbating the already existing shortage. Brexit has contributed too. So has the loss of about 12 months of driver training and testing.

The long-term ineffectiveness of apprenticeships for lorry drivers and the general hostility from authorities and Government towards lorries and road transport in general is also unhelpful in recruiting and retaining drivers. Changes around IR35 have not helped either, adding cost and uncertainty for many operators. Overall cost pressures are increasing, it is the case now that freight customers should expect higher freight rates to feed through to the end of 2021 at least.
Click to expand...

Why are you discounting the opinions of the polled drivers?


Almost 90% of those who responded to a recent Believe in Scotland survey have noticed more empty shelves in shops and supermarkets.

A total of 89.3% had noticed shortages, compared to 6% who had noticed no difference and 4.7% who were unsure.

When asked about the shortage of lorry drivers, 93.3% thought that Brexit was most to blame for the situation. Just 4.4% blamed the pandemic, 0.1% blamed the weather and 2.3% thought there was some other factor.

Just under 72% had experienced recent food quality issues such as mouldy or expired food or packages with a short shelf life, while 19.7% had not and 8.6% weren’t sure.

Even more common were issues around availability. A total of 85.9% had found it difficult to find products which were normally easily available, as opposed to 9.4% who had experienced no problems and 4.7% who weren’t sure.
Click to expand...

www.believeinscotland.org

BiS survey confirms widespread food shortages

www.believeinscotland.org www.believeinscotland.org
 
editor said:
So it's Brexit to blame.

The Road Haulage Association (RHA) estimated the UK was 60,000 drivers short of the number needed to operate properly, even before Covid. They now put that figure as high as 100,000. The RHA puts the bulk of the blame on Brexit.

Since then there have been moves to shift that blame on to the growing number of drivers in self-isolation after being in contact with Covid. But mounting evidence suggest that’s not the main factor.

The Road Haulage Association conducted a survey of its members and a report posted on its website yesterday said the results showed the main reason perceived for the current crisis was Brexit.

The report said 58% of those who responded said Brexit was a reason behind the shortage. It stated: ‘’The current vacancy levels additionally show that there are not enough UK drivers who are trained and currently willing to be employed to fill the vacancies in the industry. From the perspective of SMEs, Brexit is the main reason for the driver shortage, followed by retiring drivers and drivers leaving for another industry.’’

www.businessforscotland.com

Brexit to blame for food shortage crisis … not 'pingdemic'

Brexit remains the main factor to blame for food shortages in shops and supermarkets as attempts to make the so-called ''pingdemic'' a scapegoat are increasingly undermined. Warnings about empty shelves in shops and supermarkets began when Boris Johnson imposed his woeful Brexit trade deal which...
www.businessforscotland.com www.businessforscotland.com
Click to expand...
:confused: Whst were the relevent Unions saying/doing during the decade or so their members pay and conditions were clearly being undermined by imported cheap ;labour?
 
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