The Alt-Right

[mojo pixy]

I would appreciate you going further and explaining this more... examples?

I think I've finished explaining myself, this thread isn't about me and I wasn't the one who dragged the expression Toxic Masculinity into the discussion. I take issue with it as a useful term in distinguishing enemy from ally, and I believe that what I've written so far is enough to understand what I mean, if understanding is the point.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I think I've finished explaining myself, this thread isn't about me and I wasn't the one who dragged the expression Toxic Masculinity into the discussion. I take issue with it as a useful term in distinguishing enemy from ally, and I believe that what I've written so far is enough to understand what I mean, if understanding is the point.

I asked for examples of the kinds of people you were referring to here:

people we might fucking despise and people we might tolerate under the premise that my enemy's enemy is my friend.

Answering that isn't making the thread about you but does IMO finish you explaining yourself. Fair enough if you don't want to answer, just say that.

I am also wondering how my idea of who 'we' might/should tolerate might differ to that of others.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I have seen macho anti-fascist blokes having their behaviour respectfully challenged by other macho anti-fascist blokes though.

Can you give me an example of this..I am genuinely interested.

 

[mojo pixy]

OK, in terms of people we might fucking despise and people we might tolerate under the premise that my enemy's enemy is my friend, I mean specifically the aggressive, hyper-masculine(?) men and women who make up the bulk of frontline protestors. The people who want to be at the front when the police charge in, the first ones to pick up and return the rocks thrown by the other side, the ones who shout loudest and offer a ruck with wide eyes and arms, the ones who roll vehicles, smash windows and set things on fire. Then further, into the ones who plan and then do pub raids, gig raids and late-night house calls.

All fairly toxic stuff really, but it happens and the only question is really whose side are you on?

 

[LDC]

Can you give me an example of this..I am genuinely interested.

I don't get what you want, specific names and dates and examples of what was done?

I've seen loads of shit behavior and attitudes challenged through my time in the radical left, in every way from a few quiet words through to collective accountability processes going on years. In all sorts of bit of the movement/scene/whatever. No, not perfect and plenty more to be done, but it happens. Surely you know that?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Can you give me an example of this..I am genuinely interested.

The best example is when I was a callow, skinny student at the Polytechnic of Central London and the far right Blood & Honour (Skrewdriver etc) opened up a shop nearby to hawk their wares and attract boneheads who would intimidate people.

There was one picket called of the shop as part of the wider (successful) campaign to get it closed down. I bowled around the corner with my student mates to find a motley crew of massive skinheads on the other side of the road who looked mean as fuck. Luckily we were accompanied by some rather more physically impressive people who must have mostly been from AFA.

There were some verbals to and fro. At one point a woman came out of said shop and waved a Skrewdriver album around and told everyone they should buy it. She seemed to be recognised by a few people on the anti side and there were some jeers and comments. One big guy on our side shouted out something about her being used to hanging around on street corners for a living, which was a bit awkward but there was fucking no way I was going to make an issue of it because I was relying on this lot for my own physical protection and anyway he didn't want a lecture from some student did he.

Another physically impressive man took him to one side though and patiently explained that this was a bit of a crappy thing to say and that the main thing surely was that she was a nazi etc. And there was a bit of nodding and fair enoughs and that was the end of it.

It stayed with me though because there is always this cliche about hardmen in anti-fascism being all unreconstructed and sexist and just being in it for the violence. And perhaps that is true in some cases but I think my (limited) experience is that there was a genuine effort to combine the physical with the political at that time.

 

[LDC]

The people who want to be at the front when the police charge in, the first ones to pick up and return the rocks thrown by the other side, the ones who shout loudest and offer a ruck with wide eyes and arms, the ones who roll vehicles, smash windows and set things on fire. Then further, into the ones who plan and then do pub raids, gig raids and late-night house calls.

They're ones that are a nightmare in meetings (if they turn up), but they're always the ones you want next to you when it goes to shit.

Come the revolution all the leaflet writers and PhD's can fuck off, I want the drunken and angry crusty insurrectionary army next to me on the barricades please.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I don't get what you want, specific names and dates and examples of what was done?

My question to Fozzie was very simple and clear. I asked about what types of behaviour he has seen being called out.

I've seen loads of shit behavior and attitudes challenged through my time in the radical left, in every way from a few quiet words through to collective accountability processes going on years. In all sorts of bit of the movement/scene/whatever. No, not perfect and plenty more to be done, but it happens. Surely you know that?

Given the question wasn't aimed at you and was asked in good faith I think your tone is well off.

I was asking Fozzie for examples, if that question annoyed you, you had the option of ignoring it, instead your response is dismissive and condescending.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The best example is when I was a callow, skinny student at the Polytechnic of Central London and the far right Blood & Honour (Skrewdriver etc) opened up a shop nearby to hawk their wares and attract boneheads who would intimidate people.

There was one picket called of the shop as part of the wider (successful) campaign to get it closed down. I bowled around the corner with my student mates to find a motley crew of massive skinheads on the other side of the road who looked mean as fuck. Luckily we were accompanied by some rather more physically impressive people who must have mostly been from AFA.

There were some verbals to and fro. At one point a woman came out of said shop and waved a Skrewdriver album around and told everyone they should buy it. She seemed to be recognised by a few people on the anti side and there were some jeers and comments. One big guy on our side shouted out something about her being used to hanging around on street corners for a living, which was a bit awkward but there was fucking no way I was going to make an issue of it because I was relying on this lot for my own physical protection and anyway he didn't want a lecture from some student did he.

Another physically impressive man took him to one side though and patiently explained that this was a bit of a crappy thing to say and that the main thing surely was that she was a nazi etc. And there was a bit of nodding and fair enoughs and that was the end of it.

It stayed with me though because there is always this cliche about hardmen in anti-fascism being all unreconstructed and sexist and just being in it for the violence. And perhaps that is true in some cases but I think my (limited) experience is that there was a genuine effort to combine the physical with the political at that time.

Thank you for responding with these examples.

 

[seventh bullet]

I am too soft, a wet fart in fact, but I do appreciate that you can't turn the other cheek with people like the far-right. We need 'thugs' who aren't 'just as bad' as the fascists (as liberals like to say) but actually people who are better than them at spreading a message physically, politically.

 

[Ole]

I know exactly the kind of people mojo pixy is on about. Also met them through football.

 

[Cid]

In my not very involved association with London squats I'd say there was a level of tolerance with regards to people with some shitty views (though not the views themselves). The people who lived with them didn't always like them, and there'd be full on arguments/fights... But there would also be a degree of solidarity. Partly because kicking them out would be kicking them out of a home as well as a group, partly because they'd put time in where it counted, and partly because people who will be there when the police are falling people downstairs are rare (I mean I wasn't there).

 

[bemused]

I am too soft, a wet fart in fact, but I do appreciate that you can't turn the other cheek with people like the far-right. We need 'thugs' who aren't 'just as bad' as the fascists (as liberals like to say) but actually people who are better than them at spreading a message physically, politically.

Any message worth spreading in a democracy doesn't need to be spread 'physically' in an age of unlimited communication thumping it into someone doesn't seem the most effective method to transmit ideas.

 

[seventh bullet]

Any message worth spreading in a democracy doesn't need to be spread 'physically' in an age of unlimited communication thumping it into someone doesn't seem the most effective method to transmit ideas.

It has done and likely will do again.

 

[bemused]

It has done and likely will do again.

Which message has been beaten into society?

 

[Lurdan]

Shield wielding frat boy wankers Vanguard America have had the wordpress account which hosted their website suspended.

Some of the twitter accounts associated with it's local 'groups' are still active but whether they will entirely recover from going from almost unknown to international 'celebrity' must be open to question.

The events at Charlottesville seem to have prompted existing divisions in the group into a split. Their founder "and CEO" Dillon Hopper aka Dillon Irizarry has posted this statement about how he has been deposed

And this has provoked their British section Vanguard Britannia to disassociate themselves from the group and join with National Bloc.

As the the use of the word "I" suggests Vanguard Britannia is one person. Or as he puts it "We are not a party. We are a movement."

I'd imagine that the shit meet fan consequences of Charlottesville will also be concentrating minds among some of the members who were only there for the National Socialist cosplay. Some will be looking at the sacking of involuntary alt-right poster boy Cole White and wondering if standing up to defend white civilization is entirely compatible with post college career prospects.

#sadness

 

[seventh bullet]

Which message has been beaten into society?

Fascists have had very clear messages beaten into them by people braver than me.

 

[bemused]

Shield wielding frat boy wankers Vanguard America have had the wordpress account which hosted their website suspended.

Discord have also been cutting people off.

Discord shuts down alt-right server and accounts for ToS violations

Good stuff

 

[butchersapron]

I'd imagine that the shit meet fan consequences of Charlottesville will also be concentrating minds among some of the members who were only there for the National Socialist cosplay. Some will be looking at the sacking of involuntary alt-right poster boy Cole White and wondering if standing up to defend white civilization is entirely compatible with post college career prospects.

#sadness

His employers said they didn't sack him. But yes, given the predominance of privileged private college boys careers might need to be thought about. Then again, if they're as rich as spencer maybe not...

 

[bemused]

Fascists have had very clear messages beaten into them by people braver than me.

You mean people more violent than you? I was working in Welling in 1993 - I have no sympathy for thugs of any political bent. My take away from that experience was that people who like to go out fighting aren't particularly discerning who they attack.

 

[butchersapron]

You mean people more violent than you? I was working in Welling in 1993 - I have no sympathy for thugs of any political bent. My take away from that experience was that people who like to go out fighting aren't particularly discerning who they attack.

You're saying non-nazis or non-BNP or non-protectors of the shop were attacked by anti-fascists on the national demo and the smaller ones?

 

[bemused]

You're saying non-nazis or non-BNP or non-protectors of the shop were attacked by anti-fascists on the national demo and the smaller ones?

Not sure what you're asking? It was the October riot.

 

[LDC]

Any message worth spreading in a democracy doesn't need to be spread 'physically' in an age of unlimited communication thumping it into someone doesn't seem the most effective method to transmit ideas.

You're making the classic mistake of thinking antifa hit Nazi's to change their minds. They don't. They hit them to stop them being able to organize and grow. The changing minds happens with other forms of political activity.

 

[seventh bullet]

You mean people more violent than you? I was working in Welling in 1993 - I have no sympathy for thugs of any political bent. My take away from that experience was that people who like to go out fighting aren't particularly discerning who they attack.

What violence is allowed in your eyes? In the face of people who uplift it to political and ideological principle and seek to spread it. How do you defend against people like that?

 

[butchersapron]

Not sure what you're asking? It was the October riot.

I'm asking you to clarify if you are saying that non-fascists and their protectors were attacked by anti-fascists on that demo.

 

[Athos]

You mean people more violent than you? I was working in Welling in 1993 - I have no sympathy for thugs of any political bent. My take away from that experience was that people who like to go out fighting aren't particularly discerning who they attack.

You daft cunt.

 

[bemused]

I'm asking you to clarify if you are saying that non-fascists and their protectors were attacked by anti-fascists on that demo.

I'm saying people who had nothing to do with the demo and were simply trying to find a way home after work were attacked by people who went on the march hoping for a fight. I'd also imagine the vast majoirty of the people on that demo didn't go looking for a punch up either.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm saying people who had nothing to do with the demo and were simply trying to find a way home after work were attacked by people who went on the march hoping for a fight. I'd also imagine the vast majoirty of the people on that demo didn't go looking for a punch up either.

Bollocks. If you think that demo was anything other than a police riot then you weren't there. The only political violence apart from that that day took place well away from the demo and no-one going home from work was attacked.

 

[bemused]

What violence is allowed in your eyes? In the face of people who uplift it to political and ideological principle and seek to spread it. How do you defend against people like that?

If you attacked you obviously defend yourself. What I'd disputing here is the need to encourage a group of people to attend a counter protest who are willing to get into running street battles with the people they are protesting.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not sure what you're asking? It was the October riot.

there were two marches in welling in 1993, one was the yre march when the bnp hq was attacked. the second was the october one. and that was a police riot. the police changed the route of the march a couple of days beforehand on information from one of their undercover lot. you might have been working in welling in 1993 but i was at the demo and you're spouting shit.