Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
wtf are you on about here? welling? if it is you're no longer making any sense.
The Alt-Right
- Thread starter Jeff Robinson
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bemused
Well-Known Member
You have a different experiance of that day than I did then.
bemused
Well-Known Member
I'm not on about Welling.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i wish you'd make up your mind what you're on about.
bemused
Well-Known Member
To summarise my point.
Seventh bullet said "I am too soft, a wet fart in fact, but I do appreciate that you can't turn the other cheek with people like the far-right. We need 'thugs' who aren't 'just as bad' as the fascists (as liberals like to say) but people who are better than them at spreading a message physically, politically."
I belive his point being that apposing violent people sometimes requires violence.
I disagreed with that because a) I don't think you need to in a functioning democracy and b) if you accept people who enjoy fighting in the street you run the risk of accepting people who simply like fighting and aren't that picky about who they fight.
My only experience of such an event was Welling, because happly things like that are rare - for me anyway.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Well if it weren't for people fighting you'd be speaking German today
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Und was stimmt nicht, Deutsch zu sprechen?
bemused
Well-Known Member
Grandad is that you?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Sprechen sie Englisch bitte?
D'wards
IT'S YOUR DECISION DANIEL
I'm a little uneasy about this. The average confederate soldier didn't care about slavery and certainly didn't benefit from it. I don't need to explain here how men get cohersed into going to war when they have nothing to gain and absolutely everything to lose.
Plus destroying old monuments is a bit Taliban/Isis innit. I understand the symbolism but surely a public removal by the gov would be so much more effective.
On The Guardian FB page 90% of comments were calling the perpetrators pricks even if they agreed with the anti racism sentiments.
These actions just turn people away from the anti racism moment who should be allied
Confederate statue toppled in North Carolina during anti-racism rally
Confederate statue toppled in North Carolina during anti-racism rally
Plus destroying old monuments is a bit Taliban/Isis innit. I understand the symbolism but surely a public removal by the gov would be so much more effective.
On The Guardian FB page 90% of comments were calling the perpetrators pricks even if they agreed with the anti racism sentiments.
These actions just turn people away from the anti racism moment who should be allied
Confederate statue toppled in North Carolina during anti-racism rally
Confederate statue toppled in North Carolina during anti-racism rally
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The point is that a functioning bourgeois democracy as what we have got needs people to fight for it.
bemused
Well-Known Member
I like to see people like Tommy Robinson getting smacked in the face as much of the next person, but, I'm not sure the act slapping him is underpinning democracy. But, I don't think we'll agree here. Cheers
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Two people divided by a common language
bemused
Well-Known Member
Two people divided by a common language
Polite disagreement is a nice thing, even if you think I'm a numpty.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
...specially if I think you're being a numpty
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Will try to get round to this soon. Maybe tomorrow.
(But it's a worthwhile book. In the meantime here's a review of it: Racecraft | Review by Guy Lancaster - ).
It's difficult to extrapolate from the UK to the US but it's very clear to me that playing Whack-a Mole with fascists on British streets has always been and I suspect will always be in the mix and part of the way to do it.
What happens is that time passes between the fascists deciding to take back the streets. When they do, of course some people, usually too young and idealistic to remember, always ask if meeting violence with violence is the way to go, and those who say 'yes' are the ones who can remember the last time(s). The fash takes a beating and retreats. It works to that extent. Kerb-stones and all that.
As for some of the people from the anti-fascist side who front up; I wouldn't have them home for tea and I imagine that their ideological underpinnings might be questioned by the marchers alongside them. But they looked at the political landscape and decided that their loyalties lay broadly with the left. So it could have easily gone the other way, well it didn't.
Just as history repeats itself with the fascists deciding to have another go at a presence on the streets every so often so is there a sense of deja vu with the left analysing and conducting endless post-mortems about who did and said what. The internet is great facilitator of this. But the fact remains that the fash gets another kicking, which is a part of the cocktail of the things that need to be done. Does it prop up liberal democracy? Does it deal with the deep-rooted issues? Dunno. Does it clean the streets for a while?
What happens is that time passes between the fascists deciding to take back the streets. When they do, of course some people, usually too young and idealistic to remember, always ask if meeting violence with violence is the way to go, and those who say 'yes' are the ones who can remember the last time(s). The fash takes a beating and retreats. It works to that extent. Kerb-stones and all that.
As for some of the people from the anti-fascist side who front up; I wouldn't have them home for tea and I imagine that their ideological underpinnings might be questioned by the marchers alongside them. But they looked at the political landscape and decided that their loyalties lay broadly with the left. So it could have easily gone the other way, well it didn't.
Just as history repeats itself with the fascists deciding to have another go at a presence on the streets every so often so is there a sense of deja vu with the left analysing and conducting endless post-mortems about who did and said what. The internet is great facilitator of this. But the fact remains that the fash gets another kicking, which is a part of the cocktail of the things that need to be done. Does it prop up liberal democracy? Does it deal with the deep-rooted issues? Dunno. Does it clean the streets for a while?
gawkrodger
Well-Known Member
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
have you any comments on or criticism of the paper?
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Bit busy this morning. There's a discussion on Young Turks. One thing I thought interesting (apart from "why isn't everyone 100% human"?) is that they were not as economically troubled / marginalised as we may be inclined to believe.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Going from memory, the research is based on 2 groups founded on self-idenfication, those who say they are alt-right and those saying they are not (as a control). That seems pretty straight forward to me.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Everything on the alt-right with any depth at all has emphasised the elite privilege background of its leaders and cadre - the private colleges, the trust funds etc, the servants, the (insecure) attempts at portraying themselves as aristocrats (in many senses). None have ever mentioned being poor. Don't make the mistake of thinking the far-right and those attracted to it are one homogeneous group with the same motivations ideological affiliations and material backgrounds.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Yes. So they're representative of people on the internet who identify as alt-right, and not people not on the internet who don't. Which is mostly everyone.
Basically they asked a bunch of Nazis what they believed, and were shocked to discover they were a wee bit racist. Most pointless survey ever.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Internet surveys may be dubious, I don't know how much more dubious than asking randoms in the streets, but seeing as the alt-right is very rooted in the internet I don't think it's a massive problem. Nor do I think it's entirely useless - first there's the point I made before about them not being necessarily as economically marginalised as people think. Secondly, they may have answered questions in a way indicating they are significantly more racist than the average person, but in fact they often get very triggered at the mere mention of the idea that they could be racist. The shift to the language of "identity and culture" was heralded by, among others, Nick Griffin a generation ago.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
I'm not making that mistake, but it's important you emphasise the point. Too often, assumptions are made about poverty and racism which are not only inaccurate but let middle class and elite racists off the hook. These middle class and elitists then strawman by saying that citing racism is evidence of being out of touch with the working class. They mean white working class of course, because they are dividing the class. They don't give 2 shits that most victims of racism are working class, nor do they include the interests of non white working class in their analysis. Because they are racist.
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