The Alt-Right

[Pickman's model]

The fifty three percent of white women voted for Trump thing is pissing me off. It's somewhere in the region of thirty five percent of white women who are eligible to vote in the USA that voted for Trump (and fifty three percent of those that turned up). I still haven't found turnout figures by race and gender to work out the exact percentage.

this do you, chuck? Voting and Registration in the Election of November 2016

 

[danny la rouge]

Those of us who argue that class politics offer a positive alternative to identity politics also need to show that we take the question of how racism is reproduced seriously.

That's true, but I don't think we do anyone any favours by not pointing out that assigning responsibility for racism according to biology or skin colour is equally bigoted.

And again, I know we're on the same side here. We're just thinking aloud, right? So when you asked how we address the idea that "a wider segment of American society sustains has benefited from the actions of klansmen in the street" (which I agree is something that needs addressed), I asked about how we apportion responsibility. What I meant was that we need to be talking about hierarchies and oppression, not falling back on biology and skin colour.

To quote Stokely Carmichael, "Racism gets its power from capitalism. Thus, if you're anti-racist, whether you know it or not, you must be anti-capitalist. The power for racism, the power for sexism, comes from capitalism".

 

[eoin_k]

Eh? I haven't been sneerie or told him he doesn't know his own mind in any shape of form though. I have accepted his opinion as his own but pointed out that simply saying they are wrong or don't understand could be seen as condescending to say the least.

So when you challenge his point of view it's okay because you accept his opinion as his own, but when he disagrees with people it is akin to claiming that they don't know their own mind. How does that work?

 

[maomao]

this do you, chuck? Voting and Registration in the Election of November 2016

Thanks

60% Turn out for white women so 31.8% of US white women voted for Trump.

(Vast) majority of white women not eligible to vote in the US.

 

[Treacle Toes]

So when you challenge his point of view it's okay because you accept his opinion as his own, but when he disagrees with people it is akin to claiming that they don't know their own mind. How does that work?

You are deliberately missing out the key information as to why I challenged him on what he said. Given that Danny and I manage to communicate just fine without this silly revisionist nit-picking, I think I'll give this questioning by you a miss.

 

[Athos]

To quote Stokely Carmichael, "Racism gets its power from capitalism. Thus, if you're anti-racist, whether you know it or not, you must be anti-capitalist. The power for racism, the power for sexism, comes from capitalism".

Sadly, though understandably (from a perspective of class interests), not an idea propagated by the middle class liberals who head up the state-friendly equality fora, nor, consequently, the useful idiots of identity politics who follow them.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

To quote Stokely Carmichael, "Racism gets its power from capitalism. Thus, if you're anti-racist, whether you know it or not, you must be anti-capitalist. The power for racism, the power for sexism, comes from capitalism".

What about Stalin transporting entire ethnic groups to Siberia?

 

[bimble]

Thanks

60% Turn out for white women so 31.8% of US white women voted for Trump.

(Vast) majority of white women not eligible to vote in the US.

Still, the white women voting for trump statistic is what I got most massively wrong, thinking that the gross misogynistic things he'd said (and which were given endless play by the opposition) would put the vast majority of women off him through some sort of imagined solidarity of all female people, and that obviously didn't happen.
At the very least it shows that trying to get peoples votes by appealing to them on the basis of 'but look he's a sexist' does not work.

 

[J Ed]

Still, the white women voting for trump statistic is what I got most massively wrong, thinking that the gross misogynistic things he'd said (and which were given endless play by the opposition) would put the vast majority of women off him through some sort of imagined solidarity of all female people, and that obviously didn't happen.
At the very least it shows that trying to get peoples votes by appealing to them on the basis of 'but look he's a sexist' does not work.

Yes, and the Clinton campaign's conception of voters as segmented and separate identity based groups, sort of like they were categories on a wikipedia page or separate columns on a spreadsheet, did not map very well onto the electorate.

 

[Pickman's model]

What about Stalin transporting entire ethnic groups to Siberia?

what about it?

anyway siberia covers a vast area, it's not all kolyma you know

 

[maomao]

Still, the white women voting for trump statistic is what I got most massively wrong, thinking that the gross misogynistic things he'd said (and which were given endless play by the opposition) would put the vast majority of women off him through some sort of imagined solidarity of all female people, and that obviously didn't happen.
At the very least it shows that trying to get peoples votes by appealing to them on the basis of 'but look he's a sexist' does not work.

Well you can take heart from the fact that the real winner amongst white women, and in fact all women, was 'fuck the lot of you'.

 

[danny la rouge]

What about Stalin transporting entire ethnic groups to Siberia?

Carmichael was talking about the US there (though he does elsewhere talk about capitalism's role in supporting Apartheid, for example), and our conversation was, too.

But are you asking me if capitalism has been the only ever state structure capable of sustaining racism? Of course it hasn't.

 

[Miss Caphat]

Still, the white women voting for trump statistic is what I got most massively wrong, thinking that the gross misogynistic things he'd said (and which were given endless play by the opposition) would put the vast majority of women off him through some sort of imagined solidarity of all female people, and that obviously didn't happen.
At the very least it shows that trying to get peoples votes by appealing to them on the basis of 'but look he's a sexist' does not work.

should signify to men the degree to which women are desensitized to sexism and how normalized it is in our daily lives.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

An hours discussion on the nazi / terror and counter events in Charlottesville at the weekend. (Democracy Now)

 

[danny la rouge]

A decent man denounced his son's racism:

"My name is Pearce Tefft, and I am writing to all, with regards to my youngest son, Peter Tefft, an avowed white nationalist who has been featured in a number of local news stories over the last several months."

"We do not know specifically where he learned these beliefs. He did not learn them at home".

"Evidently Peter has chosen to unlearn these lessons, much to my and his family’s heartbreak and distress. We have been silent up until now, but now we see that this was a mistake. It was the silence of good people that allowed the Nazis to flourish the first time around, and it is the silence of good people that is allowing them to flourish now."

Letter: Family denounces Tefft's racist rhetoric and actions...

Good man, Pearce. We appreciate how heartbreaking this will be for you.

 

[bemused]

(Vast) majority of white women not eligible to vote in the US.

Why not?

 

[maomao]

Why not?

I think you need to read the sentence again.

Most white women are not US citizens.

 

[bemused]

"Evidently Peter has chosen to unlearn these lessons, much to my and his family’s heartbreak and distress.

Peter appears to be a fuckwit of the highest order

 

[Ranbay]

View attachment 113430

 

[Fingers]

Baltimore Introduces Measure to Tear Down All Confederate Statues

 

[DotCommunist]

It's amazing how many things can turn out to be women's fault.

the song even blames a woman for Hitlers missing ball

 

[petee]

more of it

"The FBI has arrested an Oklahoma man on charges that he tried to detonate what he thought was a 1,000-pound bomb, acting out of a hatred for the U.S. government and an admiration for Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, according to court papers."

Oklahoma man charged in anti-government bomb plot

 

[Treacle Toes]

View attachment 113480 View attachment 113481

...and?

 

[LDC]

...and?

Yeah I also didn't get that post...

 

[CRI]

The irony is that it's the one in the foreground whose organisation is killing more black people, now. A point that's easily overlooked by focusing upon identities rather than structural considerations.

Really? How is this any different from working class people or women generally joining the military? Does that make the the Army, Marines, National Guard, etc. "their" organisation? The upper echelons of the military and police in the US and UK are dominated by white, economically privileged, straight men from a Judeo-Christian cultural tradition and those who suffer most from their violence aren't. Still, working class folks, women, Muslims, people of colour, Lesbians and gay men join both institutions, for all sorts of reasons. Maybe they think their best chance of surviving in an unjust society is carving a niche within one of it's unjust institutions - being a "good" woman, Black guy, Muslim, etc., but knowing being part of "us" and not one of "them" is conditional. And, they'll probably be regarded as traitors by others who didn't choose as they did.

Structural oppression IS based on identity though. Those at the top of the social/economic/political pile determine respective value and status of those below them on the basis of identities, often pitting them against each other. Otherwise, you wouldn't get wealthy Black people subject to racism, female public figures subject to threats of sexual violence, passive-aggressive slating of politicians with working class roots for their accent and manners, etc.

 

[CRI]

View attachment 113480 View attachment 113481

I think it's part of the photo going around of a white supremacist guy getting punched. Are we supposed to know who the guy is with the phone? Please explain, ta.

 

[Ole]

Really? How is this any different from working class people or women generally joining the military? Does that make the the Army, Marines, National Guard, etc. "their" organisation? The upper echelons of the military and police in the US and UK are dominated by white, economically privileged, straight men from a Judeo-Christian cultural tradition and those who suffer most from their violence aren't. Still, working class folks, women, Muslims, people of colour, Lesbians and gay men join both institutions, for all sorts of reasons. Maybe they think their best chance of surviving in an unjust society is carving a niche within one of it's unjust institutions - being a "good" woman, Black guy, Muslim, etc., but knowing being part of "us" and not one of "them" is conditional. And, they'll probably be regarded as traitors by others who didn't choose as they did.

Structural oppression IS based on identity though. Those at the top of the social/economic/political pile determine respective value and status of those below them on the basis of identities, often pitting them against each other. Otherwise, you wouldn't get wealthy Black people subject to racism, female public figures subject to threats of sexual violence, passive-aggressive slating of politicians with working class roots for their accent and manners, etc.

Holy shit. That is your understanding of structural class oppression isn't it?

 

[danny la rouge]

Holy shit. That is your understanding of structural class oppression isn't it?

Yup: "class" as identity. So, no structural element at all.

This is why work like Racecraft by the Fields is so vital.

 

[CRI]

Having visited the States I was struck by the way people tend to deal with race and the assumptions they make. Legislative segregation may be over, but there's assumed segregation that's every bit as pervasive. A person's ethnicity is definitely something that does not go without comment.

Fields & Fields point out in their very useful book, Racecraft, that racism is first and foremost a social practice; an action or a rationale for action, or both at once. Whereas (their term) racecraft is the evidence that there has been racism at work. That socially ratified beliefs have been at work. (I'll get the precise definition when I get access to the book later on). So what you see in American society as an outsider is definitely not the same as you see in Europe. And that affects the language available to Americans to describe social inequalities. It has a pervasive impact on the way that class is seen and discussed.

Yes this - race is entertwined with socio-economic class in a more pervasive and very different way in the US than in the UK. I'm not familiar with the book, but I'd suggest much of this is based on the white supremacist foundations of the United States. First there was genocide of the people who already lived in what later became the nation. Then there was the enslavement of African Americans with purposeful importation and breeding of African Americans specifically for slavery. The wording of the 13th Amendment emancipating slaves paved the way for the racist prison industrial complex. The shift from reconstruction that could have supported freed slaves to a focus on "reconciliation" between the North and the (white) South. White flight from northern cities.

Basically, white supremacy has been woven into the fabric of the USA in a different way than in the UK and other European nations with an Imperial past where white supremacy was displayed more prominently through colonialism. In Britain, white supremacy enabled enslavement, exploitation and persecution of people of colour "over there" somewhere largely out of sight. In America, it was more in your face - in your street, even in your home. Not justifying either of course, but agreeing that the history, culture, structures, contexts, etc. are different.

 

[CRI]

Yup: "class" as identity. So, no structural element at all.

This is why work like Racecraft by the Fields is so vital.

Like I said, I haven't read it so it sounds like I misunderstood the premise of the book from your post. Apologies. But, are you saying there is no such thing as class as an identity? Are you also saying there is no such thing as structural racism? Are you suggesting there's just fresh air between and no connections between race and class, in America, or anywhere else?