The 7/7 Report

[Bernie Gunther]

If you hold Blair and the cabal of senior spooks who helped him lie about the Iraqi WMD accountable for inspiring terrorism, you are effective, because the majority of the population are going to find that interpretation very credible.

If you claim "MI5 did it" even if MI5 did actually do it, you are completely ineffective, because the majority of the population will think you're a loony.

Making such claims, and getting all obsessed with the discrepancies in the account of a government characterised by avoidance of responsibility is a complete distraction from what is important. Holding these lying scum accountable is what's important, not being in sole posession of the hidden truth.

 

[lostexpectation]

ed can you not make a 7/7 thread where jazz and prole are banned and let them continue ruining this one by themselves?

 

[Prole]

Explain their relevance and importance please, detailing the research you've undertaken into these apparentky "significant" details.

Are you allowed to be so demanding? is it part of the FAQ's that I don't remember reading?

 

[Prole]

If you hold Blair and the cabal of senior spooks who helped him lie about the Iraqi WMD accountable for inspiring terrorism, you are effective, because the majority of the population are going to find that interpretation very credible.

If you claim "MI5 did it" even if MI5 did actually do it, you are completely ineffective, because the majority of the population will think you're a loony.

Making such claims, and getting all obsessed with the discrepancies in the account of a government characterised by avoidance of responsibility is a complete distraction from what is important. Holding these lying scum accountable is what's important, not being in sole posession of the hidden truth.

Perhaps the events of 7th July reveal what lies behind. I grew up in a time when the slogan was 'If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal'.

 

[laptop]

Holding these lying scum accountable is what's important, not being in sole posession of the hidden truth.

But being in sole posession of a hidden "truth" clearly is all that's important to these people.

See their incomprehension of the idea of actually going out to gather evidence in the world, and their ignoring the results (as in our poster's trip to Luton with a stopwatch).

And, disgustingly, see how they react when confronted with eyewitnesses whose accounts contradict their "theories" - they attack the victims of terrorism as MI5 stooges and worse.

Their own boards really are quite an eye-opener as to how bonkers they are.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Conspiracy theory has no traction whatsoever with the few mechanisms that do exist for holding these fuckers accountable. It just makes you sound like a loony. Public opinion does have some traction if it's strong and widespread enough. Think of Thatcher's final days. The point is to mobilise that opinion.

Wanking around with conspiracy theories is just self-indulgence, the cheap thrill of cherishing privileged knowledge, of thrilling theories with purely personal significance.

If you want to hold these fuckers accountable, the only way to do it is to have every person in the UK very very clear about why those poor buggers on the tube got blown up and angry enough to hold these lying bastards accountable for creating the situation in which this happened. Wanking over exciting conspiracies just helps them avoid responsibility for provoking British citizens into blowing each other up. It's a selfish indulgence that lets them off the hook.

 

[Jazzz]

ed can you not make a thread 7/7 thread where jazz and prole are banned and let them continue ruining this one by themselves?

I appreciate the conflict LE. I would be very happy to keep CT discussion out of certain threads if we had threads where CT discussion was permitted to flow freely. The best solution to this is to create a separate forum for the CT stuff.

 

[Prole]

But being in sole posession of a hidden "truth" clearly is all that's important to these people.

See their incomprehension of the idea of actually going out to gather evidence in the world, and their ignoring the results (as in our poster's trip to Luton with a stopwatch).

And, disgustingly, see how they react when confronted with eyewitnesses whose accounts contradict their "theories" - they attack the victims of terrorism as MI5 stooges and worse.

Their own boards really are quite an eye-opener as to how bonkers they are.

Do you think there is no such thing as truth then? Whether hidden or revealed?
If you don't mind, please stop lumping me in as a 'they' and instead judge me for what I post rather than smears and insinuations that have been thrown around on these boards.
I don't expect you to agree with me, but I should be allowed the freedom to express my views.

 

[JHE]

The best solution to this is to create a separate forum for the CT stuff.

Yup. Here's one for ya: http://www.bridgetdunnes.blogspot.com/

 

[Prole]

I appreciate the conflict LE. I would be very happy to keep CT discussion out of certain threads if we had threads where CT discussion was permitted to flow freely. The best solution to this is to create a separate forum for the CT stuff.

Surely the report into 7/7 (which is the point of this thread) is a conspiracy theory?
"When two or more people together plan to commit a crime there exists by definition a conspiracy. Therefore any theory about who did it or how it was done is by definition a "conspiracy theory". The question is then not whether you are a conspiracy theorist but for which conspiracy theory you find the evidence most compelling."

 

[Jazzz]

Just shouting at people to go away isn't much use JHE

 

[Bernie Gunther]

What do you want to do, hold these fuckers accountable or keep jerking off?

 

[laptop]

judge me for what I post

Oh, but I do.

 

[JHE]

Just shouting at people to go away isn't much use JHE

I haven't shouted at all. You've just made that up!

The point - which I'm sure you understand, whether you like it or not - is that there are already forums devoted to the daft theories that you like.

 

[Jazzz]

If you claim "MI5 did it" even if MI5 did actually do it, you are completely ineffective, because the majority of the population will think you're a loony.

Making such claims, and getting all obsessed with the discrepancies in the account of a government characterised by avoidance of responsibility is a complete distraction from what is important. Holding these lying scum accountable is what's important, not being in sole posession of the hidden truth.

And if MI5 actually did do it (suppose) it wouldn't be important to hold them accountable? Some people are prepared to run the gauntlet of being declared 'loony' and it's only thanks to them that truth of such matters might be established. This is happening with 9/11. Years ago, I was reluctant to talk about it. Now people are on the whole pretty receptive to it. Few years' time, and you may be pitied for believing the government story... and I don't think out of the ever-increasing numbers who reject it, any are going to vote for Bush...

 

[Prole]

And, disgustingly, see how they react when confronted with eyewitnesses whose accounts contradict their "theories" - they attack the victims of terrorism as MI5 stooges and worse.

So does this apply to me then? Which one of the 'theys' that contribute to these boards should I lump you in with?

 

[Jazzz]

I haven't shouted at all. You've just made that up!

The point - which I'm sure you understand, whether you like it or not - is that there are already forums devoted to the daft theories that you like.

ok, well the point is that there's plenty of forums for all kinds of stuff, but urban75 has always been a free discussion board and posters have been here for years talking about anything and everything.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

And if MI5 actually did do it (suppose) it wouldn't be important to hold them accountable? Some people are prepared to run the gauntlet of being declared 'loony' and it's only thanks to them that truth of such matters might be established. This is happening with 9/11. Years ago, I was reluctant to talk about it. Now people are on the whole pretty receptive to it. Few years' time, and you may be pitied for believing the government story... and I don't think out of the ever-increasing numbers who reject it, any are going to vote for Bush...

You have no chance of being taken seriously. The only way to hold these people accountable is to hold them accountable for what the balance of probability says happened. Which is that the war in Iraq inspired some UK citizens to blow up some other UK citizens. By making up thrilling stories about false flag operations, you may derive some personal excitement, but the effect overall is to help these evil fuckers off the hook for their lies and criminal acts.

 

[ZAMB]

They decided that they were going to take their own lives at the expense of others.

Why?

A panel discussion on TV on Sunday suggested that this is the real conspiracy - that the Govt. are staying so quiet about the causes [Iraq for instance]. That they don't want any further inquiry because they don't want to reveal their own culpability.

I find this thread pathetic though - pages of accusations of conspiracy theories and insults back and forward. Can 'editor' not allow that wanting to know facts to which the public are entitled is the right of the public?? Why not clear up all the questions with a more transparent enquiry that would put an end to all this speculation - instead of leaving things in a state where people are arguing like this about what the true facts are? What is the point of abusing people simply because they want the whole story? Even though these 4 boys are dead, does that mean that they can just be found guilty without a full inquiry into the whys and hows - would the public really understanding what happened that day not be useful in preventing further such incidents - as well as giving some proper closure to people who are still suffering from being involved in this tragedy? I have signed the petition, but I have no great faith in the government taking notice of it - in my experience they usually ignore such things.

 

[Prole]

You have no chance of being taken seriously. The only way to hold these people accountable is to hold them accountable for what the balance of probability says happened. Which is that the war in Iraq inspired some UK citizens to blow up some other UK citizens. By making up thrilling stories about false flag operations, you may derive some personal benefit, but the effect overall is to help these evil fuckers off the hook for their lies and criminal acts.

Isn't there a danger of creating 'evil fuckers' amongst young Muslims if the analysis of 7th July is incorrect? Which, if you read the conclusions of the official report can be nearly any young radicalised Muslim? The report even quotes that a couple of them were CT's who believed that 9/11 was an inside job. The consequences for not knowing the truth have far reaching implications.

 

[Jazzz]

(to Bernie)

I disagree utterly Bernie. The way to beat these people is not to play to their agenda of manipulation, by confining yourself to comments acceptable to the masses - that's a recipe for letting them do what the hell they like. Take WMDs - yes there were some of us who knew, or at least strongly suspected, that the whole farce was a huge steaming pile of crap; but it wasn't acceptable to say so at least on mainstream media. Yet if more had been prepared to listen to such a crazy notion, the whole thing might have been exposed for the sham it was in time.

We are ruled not be having people say what they believe, but by getting people to shut up.

As far Blair is concerned we all want him sent down, I think we are in agreement there.

 

[Prole]

If indeed these were suicide bombers not a single person I know would question that there was a link with Iraq. Most people after the events thought so, despite Bliars's refusal to accept there wasa link. In fact we share collective responsibility for the slaughter there, our taxes pay for it and our govt and army carry it out.

I doubt we would need a public inquiry to prove what everyone already believes, if they were suicide-bombers then Iraq was to blame.

 

[Jazzz]

A panel discussion on TV on Sunday suggested that this is the real conspiracy - that the Govt. are staying so quiet about the causes [Iraq for instance]. That they don't want any further inquiry because they don't want to reveal their own culpability.

I find this thread pathetic though - pages of accusations of conspiracy theories and insults back and forward. Can 'editor' not allow that wanting to know facts to which the public are entitled is the right of the public?? Why not clear up all the questions with a more transparent enquiry that would put an end to all this speculation - instead of leaving things in a state where people are arguing like this about what the true facts are? What is the point of abusing people simply because they want the whole story? Even though these 4 boys are dead, does that mean that they can just be found guilty without a full inquiry into the whys and hows - would the public really understanding what happened that day not be useful in preventing further such incidents - as well as giving some proper closure to people who are still suffering from being involved in this tragedy? I have signed the petition, but I have no great faith in the government taking notice of it - in my experience they usually ignore such things.

A very fair post ZAMB.

 

[Prole]

Thanks for the discussion everyone, it's so much better when there's no abuse.
night

 

[Blagsta]

I'm no expert I just used my own eyes. There are very obviously bars going through the blob we are told is Khan. Also there are no puddles where the 4 figures are which given it was raining and the entrance is uncovered struck me as odd.
I liked your point (if you were the ed that made it) that you carried a carrier bag when you went shopping, when I pointed out that Lindsay was carrying a white carrier bag on both the 28/6 and 7th July. I doubt if Lindsay was going shopping on the 7th.

To quote Alan Sugar - "you're a bleedin' nutter". Do you really think that if someone was going to fake a photo on Photoshop that they wouldn't make a good job of it? Are you insane?

 

[Blagsta]

.

 

[fela fan]

We are ruled not be having people say what they believe, but by getting people to shut up.

And that is what the word 'conspiracy theory' has come to represent. A way to shut up people who have the wrong opinions.

I have noted recently all the extra baggage that has stuck with this term, for example that such people indulge themselves with secret hidden truths that no-one else knows.

Pure ego nonsense.

From where i'm coming from i'm more than prepared to accept that it was these four who carried out the bombings.

What i'm interested in is how it came about that they did the bombings.

What i'm also interested in is how, like 911, it's been put down to inefficiency on the part of government agencies.

Inefficiency during the height of the war against terrorism. Bringing in all these new laws, the id cards, and yet even though they suspected some of these bombers, they never nabbed them.

Did they let them carry out their actions? That's the proper question.

 

[scalyboy]

FFS: how about something really fucking crazy like the pavement outside the station is on a slope that drains water away easily?
Or that the rain came in from a side protected by the station buildings?
Or that a guard swept it minutes beforehand?

Have you been to the building to check out how the rain is drained off? Have you looked up the layout of the building? Do you know anything about the station at all?

As I recall from my visits to Luton station, there are two different surfaces of tarmac at the station entrance (you can see the 1st three men on one surface, then Tanweer, behind, on another, darker tarmac). So perhaps they had different water-retention properties - different porosity or some such - which would cause puddles to remain on one but not the other?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It's interesting isn't it, that while Blair's responsibility for putting us in this situation by telling lies to start an illegal war remains unresolved, and while information begins to emerge suggesting incompetence on the part of state security agencies despite the roll-back of our ancient liberties in the name of fighting terrorism, such effort is going into arguing about these video stills.

Quite.


It makes one wonder whether or not the conspiraloons who have shown up so forcefully on this site (and probably on other similar sites as well) are not paid employees or agents of Thames House. After all they do a very good job of obfusticating debate about the culpability of Blair etc. Far more effective for the security service to get people arguing about the minuatae of video stills than where blame really should lie for getting us in to this mess in the first place.

So Prole what are you Box or Branch?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> Did they let them carry out their actions? That's the proper question.

That's one question, its but not the only one.

Another question that one might properly ask is did they get us all into this situation, with no workable idea of how they'd handle the entirely forseeable consequences?

Thirty years of dealing with the IRA, when they knew more or less exactly who the main players were and were still unable to stop them much of the time is probably the best available guide to how capable the state security agencies are likely to be in dealing with the consequences of Blair's illegal war on Iraq.