SWP expulsions and squabbles

[butchersapron]

i imagine there's internal forums, fb threads etc happening

Imagine?

edit: and to be clear, i mean one run by the SWP.

 

[Das Uberdog]

i'm sure there are

 

[butchersapron]

i'm sure there are

You're sure or you know there are?

 

[Pickman's model]

i'm sure there are

can you say something more concrete?

 

[Das Uberdog]

i know there are. and i can't say anything more as i'm not privy to the details

 

[kavenism]

One of their lines is that it's not all about the party - it's about wider class issues. Is it then, when they act like this? And what does acting like this reveal?

Seymour may have an idea of where he wants this to go, but I’m beginning to think that he’s an increasingly moderate voice, particularly after Mayo’s Counterstrike. What’s the end game of giving a forum for all those member’s letters? The CC can just ignore it and him and wait for those who want to leave to do so, then reassess in terms of what can be done. I don’t think they’re feeling rushed at all.

 

[Pickman's model]

i know there are. and i can't say anything more as i'm not privy to the details

so you understand there to be but you can't say any more than that because you don't know more than that.

 

[butchersapron]

i know there are. and i can't say anything more as i'm not privy to the details

No worries, take your word on it.

 

[Das Uberdog]

so you understand there to be but you can't say any more than that because you don't know more than that.

oui

 

[butchersapron]

Seymour may have an idea of where he wants this to go, but I’m beginning to think that he’s an increasingly moderate voice, particularly after Mayo’s Counterstrike. What’s the end game of giving a forum for all those member’s letters? The CC can just ignore it and him and wait for those who want to leave to do so, then reassess in terms of what can be done. I don’t think they’re feeling rushed at all.

The endgame is exactly what he said. Recall conference. He's got stuff he can publish everyday for weeks yet. The hard grit of getting on the motorbike like cliff may be happening, i don't know.

I think the CC now have the option of all these cunts we attracted and used as a sign of our success, well they were the wrong sort of cunt( either due to the party being flooded due to the high level of class struggle or drained due to the low level of class struggle).

 

[Das Uberdog]

reality bites

 

[kavenism]

I think the CC now have the option of all these cunts we attracted and used as a sign of our success, well they were the wrong sort of cunt( either due to the party being flooded due to the high level of class struggle or drained due to the low level of class struggle).

Well it's nice to have options

 

[cesare]

Wrong sort of cunt

 

[butchersapron]

reality bites

What's that mean DU?

 

[Das Uberdog]

the reality of their shoddy recruitment practices coming home to roost, is shit

ETA

for them

 

[butchersapron]

the reality of their shoddy recruitment practices coming home to roost, is shit

Ok gotcha.

 

[kavenism]

the reality of their shoddy recruitment practices coming home to roost, is shit

ETA

for them

In my personal tale of SWP woe the turning point was when I recruited this enthusiastic StWC supporter on a Saturday paper sale and felt guilty about it for the rest of the day. Knew it was time to go after that!

 

[barney_pig]

Just as an empty pitcher rings loudest voices such as seymour's receive more attention on the Internet, however I would guess that for every adherent to the "fight on in the party/ true to the traditions of the IS" (perhaps in itself a signal of the conservative nature of the opposition discourses) there are a dozen or more ordinary party members who are quietly tearing up their membership and putting their phones on to ignore when the comrades call.

 

[Pickman's model]

Just as an empty pitcher rings loudest voices such as seymour's receive more attention on the Internet, however I would guess that for every adherent to the "fight on in the party/ true to the traditions of the IS" (perhaps in itself a signal of the conservative nature of the opposition discourses) there are a dozen or more ordinary party members who are quietly tearing up their membership and putting their phones on to ignore when the comrades call.

and quite a few more who haven't joined thanking their lucky stars they avoided this car crash

 

[kavenism]

surely the point was, there is no positive theory of the state. The state is like a gun, you can choose to leave it in the hands of a psychopath, or you can choose to take it from them, to disarm them. The lessons of Spain, lean me to the latter.

If that were true would you not want to take shooting lessons?

 

[butchersapron]

And it's not like a gun. I have no idea what "there is no positive theory of the state" could even begin to mean.

 

[SpackleFrog]

yeah,. you're probably right really. But I still dont count Matgamna cos he was only drafted in to help make the change to DC, and was then rapidly kicked out. i dont think he, or his small band of followers, were ever really members of the party, or within its tradition.

I think from what I've read, it seems that Workers Fight actually came away with quite a few more members than they went in with, including Martin Thomas for example, whose article was posted earlier in the thread and has been one of their leading lights for a good while now. Worth baring in mind as well that they then merged with Workers Power, also a split from the IS, to form the ICL, and that for the last 30 years they've definitely consistently espoused the state capitalist formula, which puts them fairly squarely in the IS tradition, IMO.

Of course, to be fair I should admit I've just remembered Workers Fight was formed by Matgamna and a handful of renegades from the RSL (later Militant)...which kind of further undermines my original point... But still, what I mean is, it's bloody rich for 'Donny Mayo' to suggest that it's only recently that the SWP have begun to have problems with splits.

 

[SpineyNorman]

i imagine there's internal forums, fb threads etc happening

I think proletarian democracy should release a statement on the situation then offer our blog as a discussion forum.

 

[belboid]

for the last 30 years they've definitely consistently espoused the state capitalist formula, which puts them fairly squarely in the IS tradition, IMO.

eh? They're Shachtmanite bureaucratic centralists, explicitly opposing State Cap

 

[two sheds]

i imagine there's internal forums, fb threads etc happening

Again, though, aren't they effectively banning themselves by becoming factions? Dissent seems to be ruled out by definition.

I still don't understand why they come up with something like "Democratic Centralism", by definition democracy is people vote and the losers are supposed to fall in with the winners. The 'centralism' bit just seems to try to stifle dissent.

 

[butchersapron]

eh? They're Shachtmanite bureaucratic centralists, explicitly opposing State Cap

Yep.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I think proletarian democracy should release a statement on the situation then offer our blog as a discussion forum.

Get on with it then.

 

[butchersapron]

Let's just get this right -there is no internal forum for SWP members debate/discussion?

 

[butchersapron]

Get on with it then.

Don't whack the tail you may not like in the end to shoW people up and that

 

[kavenism]

And it's not like a gun. I have no idea what "there is no positive theory of the state" could even begin to mean.

I'm a lot more convinced by the theory of the liberal state that sees it as having more of a productive/destructive relationship to liberty. Seeing every area of life that has state involvement in the binary terms of freedom and oppression is one of the most irritating hangovers from the Leninist theory of the state. It flows straight into these people on twitter talking about being oppressed because some daft cunt wrote an op-ed piece with a shite joke about transsexuals in it. And I doubt any of them even identify with Leninism!