SWP expulsions and squabbles

[discokermit]

What's that Fawlty?

i'm more faulty than fawlty.

 

[Athos]

que? (thats the only faulty towers reference i know..)

I was trying to make the point that it's not as simple as saying that the problem with the SWP's handling of the rape allegation was caused by the interests of the leadership, and that democratic centralism was merely an expedient tool to further those interests (which implies that other models of organisation could/would have been used in similar ways).

Isn't the ease with which democratic centralism can perverted by leaderships an argument against ever organising on that basis?

Surely history shows us that it is a form of organisation open to abuse. And, as a matter of logic, giving a leadership the responsibility for instilling discipline (coercing dissenters to act against their own wishes) is concentrating power in the hands of a minority which has different interests to the majority. Opportunity and motive.

 

[Red Cat]

Setting aside the claims made about the wishes of the complainant, I really don't get the idea of the process being "justified by the politics". According to kimber it was justified on the basis of the organisation's founding principles and based upon the legitimacy derived from iis 'Dem Cent' processes.
Any member sitting on the DC would have to have been well aware that they were acting ideologically as a deliberate alternative to the capitalist criminal justice system, and as a court of the putative workers state.

Where does it say it was justified by their founding principles?

Founding principles/ideology or however you like to phrase it is what I meant by 'the politics'. And I meant justified by the CC not that I think it was justified, just in case that's not clear.

ETA: Actually, I don't think that's clear at all but I can't be arsed making it clearer. I look after my 2 kids all day and my head is frazzled. Sorry!

 

[xslavearcx]

Setting aside the claims made about the wishes of the complainant, I really don't get the idea of the process being "justified by the politics". According to kimber it was justified on the basis of the organisation's founding principles and based upon the legitimacy derived from iis 'Dem Cent' processes.
Any member sitting on the DC would have to have been well aware that they were acting ideologically as a deliberate alternative to the capitalist criminal justice system, and as a court of the putative workers state.

It certainly invites that comparison when their chat was like "slagging off bourgiouse justice - now onto the proceedings..."

 

[Red Cat]

The opening to the proceedings from one the DC says this:

'We know how the courts and the police make women, you know, try to blame women, how few rapes are reported and how few of them are successfully prosecuted. And we understood how personally difficult it was for someone to come forward with a complaint like this.'

It is only later that a member speaks from the floor about bourgeois justice.

Anyway, I don't know.

 

[xslavearcx]

Ok so im paraphrasing a lot but there was chat about bourgiouse justice and its failings and a tone of almost back patting about how they well or how proud of themselves they were to get through it. I cant be bothered reading it again but was there not a bit where someone was like "we spent x amount of days going over the details" as if taht was supposed to be impressive...

 

[cesare]

sharing a board with anarchists needs a bit of give and take. it's probably best not to mention the k word. i did it once but i think i got away with it...

 

[cesare]

cunt

 

[BigTom]

Has this longer SWP response from yesterday been posted up yet?

http://www.swp.org.uk/14/01/2013/response-attacks-swp

I kind of assumed it had been and I'd just missed it but a comment a page or two back about if that short comment was from Kimber made me think it hadn't been.

 

[Red Cat]

Ok so im paraphrasing a lot but there was chat about bourgiouse justice and its failings and a tone of almost back patting about how they well or how proud of themselves they were to get through it. I cant be bothered reading it again but was there not a bit where someone was like "we spent x amount of days going over the details" as if taht was supposed to be impressive...

I can't be bothered to do over it again either but I did go over it several times a few days ago and there are two references from the DC to how the police treat women making rape allegations. Later there are two references from the floor about bourgeois courts and justice.

 

[Oisin123]

While we are marking time, waiting for the branch meetings to take place, it occurs to me to wonder what Julie Waterson would have made of this. Some of the SWP's leading women campaigners have wrecked themselves in this crash, but from what I knew of her, I've a sense JW might have told it straight: and used appropriately vigorous language.

 

[barney_pig]

While we are marking time, waiting for the branch meetings to take place, it occurs to me to wonder what Julie Waterson would have made of this. Some of the SWP's leading women campaigners have wrecked themselves in this crash, but from what I knew of her, I've a sense JW might have told it straight: and used appropriately vigorous language.

I would like to think this was true, but I am aware of just how much a comrade is expected to swallow in the name of the party.

 

[frogwoman]

I've got a female SWP member on facebook who's put literally NOTHING about this at all but quite a bit of stuff about the indian gang-rape etc

 

[Pickman's model]

I've got a female SWP member on facebook who's put literally NOTHING about this at all but quite a bit of stuff about the indian gang-rape etc

In the famous tradition of supporting things more vigorously the further away they are

 

[frogwoman]

she is a bit of a hack though, to put it mildly

 

[Pickman's model]

she is a bit of a hack though, to put it mildly

When you say you've got a female swp member on facebook, what exactly do you mean?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

she is a bit of a hack though, to put it mildly

That explains your previous post

 

[frogwoman]

When you say you've got a female swp member on facebook, what exactly do you mean?

i mean that i've done sone anti-cuts stuff with her in the past and i have her on facebook. It's very strange as the SWP don't seem to be saying anything about it and a lot of them just seem to be doing stalls and selling papers as usual.

 

[Pickman's model]

Having someone on facebook sounds a bit euphemistick

 

[frogwoman]

i suppose it does

 

[bolshiebhoy]

The SWP are saying plenty about it to each other, they're just not generally doing it in front of an audience of anarchists and sp members. The sensible ones aren't anyway.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

The SWP are saying plenty about it to each other, they're just not generally doing it in front of an audience of anarchists and sp members. The sensible ones aren't anyway.

But presumably they're saying it in front of Labour party members who gossip widely about politics with Tories in pubs and anarchos and SPers on message boards then?

 

[Pickman's model]

The SWP are saying plenty about it to each other, they're just not generally doing it in front of an audience of anarchists and sp members. The sensible ones aren't anyway.

You mean they're talking about it behind the cc's back despite the insistence everyone move on.

 

[imposs1904]

This link just popped up on Facebook:

SWP Opposition

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

This link just popped up on Facebook:

SWP Opposition

Do people think its real or a wind up?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

But presumably they're saying it in front of Labour party members who gossip widely about politics with Tories in pubs and anarchos and SPers on message boards then?

Like most ex memebrs I'm highly interested in the outcome of this and one or two dissident members seem happy to share the discussions with sympathetic ex members 99% of which shouldn't be passed on to people who would only want to use it to hurt them and their comrades. But to be honest I have more respect for the majority who rightly don't want to tell folk like me anything. And I wouldn't dream of asking them, it's their crisis to resolve and I hope they can. Said before, the transcript should never have been published.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Like most ex memebrs I'm highly interested in the outcome of this and one or two dissident members seem happy to share the discussions with sympathetic ex members 99% of which shouldn't be passed on to people who would only want to use it to hurt them and their comrades. But to be honest I have more respect for the majority who rightly don't want to tell folk like me anything. And I wouldn't dream of asking them, it's their crisis to resolve and I hope they can. Said before, the transcript should never have been published.

Have you told the people confiding their fears and concerns in you that you respect the people who aren't talking to you more?

 

[imposs1904]

Do people think its real or a wind up?

That did cross my mind. On the right hand column it states:

Because of the climate of fear and intimidation within the party, comrades wishing to join the faction can do so anonymously by emailing us just your email address to swpopposition@gmail.com

It'd be funny if it turns out the blog had been set up by Charlie Kimber, and some wannabe oppositionist had just emailed him his or her details. Funny in a gallow sense of humour way.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Do people think its real or a wind up?

I'm a bit dubious. There's a couple of uses of language that seem very slightly off to me. We'll see soon enough.

eta: Also there's not enough stuff on it.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Have you told the people confiding their fears and concerns in you that you respect the people who aren't talking to you more?

Sure have. I think the dissidents are slightly surprised at the number of ex members who are siding with the calmer voices and not impressed by the Seymour bandwagon.