SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Random]

I've just had another quick look on the website and I can't find it. either I'm a total noob or it's a secret.

Can't find it either

 

[SpineyNorman]

He's commenting on the fact that the failure to bring about revolution is forever laid at the door of left parties "doing Leninism wrong" (or misreading other pieces of ideology), when the fault almost certainly doesn't lie with it being done wrong or with misreading the meaning of ideology, but that it's still being done at all after 95+ years of not working post the October Revolution.
In my humble opinion.

I think you have to look beyond the failings (frequent though they may be) of left groups to understand why we've not had a revolution.

 

[two sheds]

Surely the constitution of the Socialist Party is on their website? If not, I don't understand why, is it a secret. Aren't members given a copy when they join? I would have thought that would be a pretty fundamental thing to do in terms of democracy?

In the 70s I had to join Tass (the union rather than the Soviet newspaper) and on the application form was 'I agree to abide by the Rules and Regulations of the Union' so I asked if I could see them and was told 'No, only members can see a copy'.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Can't find it either

 

[Das Uberdog]

My point was directed against the person who said that parties' support for DC simply reflected the views of the members, and is limited only to that.

who said this?

 

[articul8]

Out of interest articul8 iirc you were a member at one point. if you dont mind me asking why did you leave?

Yes, even a centre full-timer for a briefish period - it was a mixture of personal and political issues really which it took me a while to process and acknowledge - I just went into a depressive episode and left very abruptly without every really clarifying why.

I can see there was a few things on the political level that I was avoiding saying straight out:
1) I didn't see the new workers party as a realistic strategy in the short term given the electoral system - I was conscious that the Labour party had deeper roots than the SP was acknowledging
2) a failure to critically reflect on the limits of "socialism" as envisage EITHER by the old Labour (nationalise the top 250 monopolies) or by the Soviet model. Forumula like "democratic workers control and ownership" were used to paper over what was basically a top-down statist model of how things would work - with some structures to relay messages back and forth to factory committees.
3) a sectarian approach to other just about everyone - "only our tendency" - Taaffe once even remarked that they should have nicked "ourselves alone" as a motto from Sinn Fein

There's a lot in the SP that is healthy and valuable too though - I'm not suggesting otherwise. In fact I'm still in touch with a number of SPers - and work with them perfectly happily for the most part at a local level (except when they are on about having to stand TUSC candidates). I can see myself being in a broad left party/coalition with them in the future, no probs.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I very much doubt that this will be brought up in the vast majority of union branches that SWP members are in. Most members and stewards will be totally unaware that this has happened or even that the SWP even exists. My union branch probably has more lefties than the vast majority of union branches in the country and I haven't heard anyone mention it in our branch committee or in our stewards meetings or even outside those meetings. I'm sure stewards in left groups are discussing it between themselves but they won't talk to the SWP stewards about it.

Yeah you're probably right to be fair. I based that post on comments I've seen from swappies on blogs where they're saying people have been calling them rape apologists at meetings writing rapist on their placards at demos - but thinking about it I probably should have been more skeptical - after all the dissidents have good reason to make shit like that up.

 

[Oisin123]

Breaking news: a coup has taken place in the Brighton and Hove Albion Stamp Collecting Society. 'It wasn't just that the Executive Committee monopolised the 2d 'blues', said well known blogger Sam Game. 'It was the arrogance with which they addressed our recent AGM. They lied to us about member Delta's theft of a rare issue. It goes against all the history, traditions and dialectical practice of stamp collecting. So we petitioned for an EGM and thre them all out.'

 

[Delroy Booth]

I bet members of the Brighton and Hove Stamp Collecting Society get to see its constitution.

 

[The39thStep]

I bet members of the Brighton and Hove Stamp Collecting Society get to see its constitution.

only if they attach an SAE

 

[emanymton]

So Delroy, the SP didn't invite you to their regional meetings and wouldn't let you see a copy of the constitution, do you think maybe they just didn't like you?

 

[barney_pig]

Yeah you're probably right to be fair. I based that post on comments I've seen from swappies on blogs where they're saying people have been calling them rape apologists at meetings writing rapist on their placards at demos - but thinking about it I probably should have been more skeptical - after all the dissidents have good reason to make shit like that up.

To be fair, I was looking forward to doing this at the next demo.

 

[Delroy Booth]

So Delroy, the SP didn't invite you to their regional meetings and wouldn't let you see a copy of the constitution, do you think maybe they just didn't like you?

Don't be mean.

I'll fucking show 'em, just you wait 'til I've joined the CPGB, then you'll see.

 

[SpackleFrog]

If an anarchist group had failed to deal with an accused rapist, and failed because of the use of consensus decision making and lack of structure, you'd be justified in saying that this was a failure of anarchist theory and method. Likewise this is a failure of Leninist theory and method.

That assumes that an anarchist group or a Leninist group, in modern-day Britain where such organisations can operate out in the open, should be "dealing" with an accused rapist. It's got nothing to do with the failures of organisational structures and far more to do with being unrealistic about the goals and purposes of said organisations. 'Dem Cent' is a way of discussing and putting into action debates about politics and organisation, and it's pretty reliant on the membership knowing what the fuck is going on. It's not a "method" for dealing with rape accusations. dennisr makes a few good points on this.

I personally don't moderate what I say to people because I'm in a Leninist party. That's not part of the model for me; I can make any argument I like and I won't be expelled. Now if I do something that is totally out of keeping with the party, like racially abuse someone or go out canvassing for Labour instead of for a TUSC candidate, then I might expect some kind of "disciplinary action", sure, but that isn't a problem for me.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Don't be mean.

I'll fucking show 'em, just you wait 'til I've joined the CPGB, then you'll see.

Join the CPGB? This is the best revenge plan I've ever heard of. Do it Delroy!

 

[SpackleFrog]

Who's that then? Don't be shy, name names.

And apologies if I mis-read the nature of Frogwoman's post.

Can think of one or two potential candidates...whoever it is, I think it just demonstrates that we're not so intolerant as to kick someone out for not being very good at arguing the line. They're trying after all.

 

[SpackleFrog]

How long before the K word is mentioned?

I'M GLAD KRONSTADT HAPPENED.

(Disclaimer: probably)

 

[brogdale]

That assumes that an anarchist group or a Leninist group, in modern-day Britain where such organisations can operate out in the open, should be "dealing" with an accused rapist. It's got nothing to do with the failures of organisational structures and far more to do with being unrealistic about the goals and purposes of said organisations. 'Dem Cent' is a way of discussing and putting into action debates about politics and organisation, and it's pretty reliant on the membership knowing what the fuck is going on. It's not a "method" for dealing with rape accusations. dennisr makes a few good points on this.

I personally don't moderate what I say to people because I'm in a Leninist party. That's not part of the model for me; I can make any argument I like and I won't be expelled. Now if I do something that is totally out of keeping with the party, like racially abuse someone or go out canvassing for Labour instead of for a TUSC candidate, then I might expect some kind of "disciplinary action", sure, but that isn't a problem for me.

But when the organisational structure of the organisation determines that there can be no interface with the capitalist justice system and then fails to achieve justice, that is an organisational failing.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Join the CPGB? This is the best revenge plan I've ever heard of. Do it Delroy!

If I could wangle a job sitting on my arse and writing about trotskyite in-fighting in the Weekly Worker by pretending to like Stalinism I'd be happier than a pig in shit

Can think of one or two potential candidates...whoever it is, I think it just demonstrates that we're not so intolerant as to kick someone out for not being very good at arguing the line. They're trying after all.

agree

 

[SpackleFrog]

But when the organisational structure of the organisation determines that there can be no interface with the capitalist justice system and then fails to achieve justice, that is an organisational failing.

I don't think there ever was a discussion at the SWP's congress about how they would handle a rape allegation, so again doesn't really link back to 'dem cent'. The correct response really would have been "Shit, we can't really handle this".

I'm not being clear here... What I mean is, that if there had been a democratic vote in the SWP in the past, agreeing that the Party should investigate serious crimes, then that would be democratically agreed process which party members would have to abide by. And even if that happened, it wouldn't negate dem cent so much as the membership that decided that.

 

[brogdale]

I don't think there ever was a discussion at the SWP's congress about how they would handle a rape allegation, so again doesn't really link back to 'dem cent'. The correct response really would have been "Shit, we can't really handle this".

Surely the members of a party that declares clearly that it is not an institution of capitalist society would be aware of its praxis of not engaging with the bourgeois criminal justice system? In this instance, the alternative, (revolutionary?), justice offered by the 'Den Cent' organisation, appears not to have satisfied a significant proportion of the membership. If they do not give legitimacy to the justice dispensed, what chance that such a nascent workers state could convince 'ordinary' workers that they offer a credible alternative state?

 

[Das Uberdog]

the latest from AMM...

 

[The39thStep]

As someone who was disciplined by a Leninist party (and told off by other members via PM just for airing some of my views) I was just giving Frogwoman some advice. It seems that the SP, as well as SP members on here, are far more tolerant of this sort of thing so that's good. I haven't tried to push any views on her at all, and I don't think others have either.

To be fair Matt no SP members have tried giving a live commentary from their conference on Urban

 

[SpackleFrog]

Surely the members of a party that declares clearly that it is not an institution of capitalist society would be aware of its praxis of not engaging with the bourgeois criminal justice system? In this instance, the alternative, (revolutionary?), justice offered by the 'Den Cent' organisation, appears not to have satisfied a significant proportion of the membership. If they do not give legitimacy to the justice dispensed, what chance that such a nascent workers state could convince 'ordinary' workers that they offer a credible alternative state?

There's a big difference between claiming not to be a capitalist institution and dealing with serious criminal allegations in-house. If you care to go through all the pre-conference docs for example, you'll see that two members of the SWP were expelled this year because they were convicted of crimes reported to the police. They also have called (rightly IMO) for Assange to be tried in a bourgeois court.

In any case, even if declaring your party isn't a capitalist institution were to make it ok to deal with serious criminal allegations, that still wouldn't be the logical conclusion of democratic centralism; that's the method of decision making, not the decision itself.

 

[The39thStep]

Surely the members of a party that declares clearly that it is not an institution of capitalist society would be aware of its praxis of not engaging with the bourgeois criminal justice system? In this instance, the alternative, (revolutionary?), justice offered by the 'Den Cent' organisation, appears not to have satisfied a significant proportion of the membership. If they do not give legitimacy to the justice dispensed, what chance that such a nascent workers state could convince 'ordinary' workers that they offer a credible alternative state?

could you possibly repeat the question again?

 

[dennisr]

Surely the members of a party that declares clearly that it is not an institution of capitalist society would be aware of its praxis of not engaging with the bourgeois criminal justice system? In this instance, the alternative, (revolutionary?), justice offered by the 'Den Cent' organisation, appears not to have satisfied a significant proportion of the membership. If they do not give legitimacy to the justice dispensed, what chance that such a nascent workers state could convince 'ordinary' workers that they offer a credible alternative state?

the impression i have is that any ordinary workers who would know about the shenanegans going on at the moment are more appalled that a group tried to act as though it could be judge and jury in this instance.

 

[dennisr]

I'M GLAD KRONSTADT HAPPENED.

(Disclaimer: probably)

troll ;-)

 

[Fedayn]

the latest from AMM...

Is it just me or does Kimber look like the Emperor from Star Wars......

And Callinicos like the toad fancier from The League of Gentlemen?

 

[Das Uberdog]

it's not just you

 

[cesare]

the impression i have is that any ordinary workers who would know about the shenanegans going on at the moment are more appalled that a group tried to act as though it could be judge and jury in this instance.

Exactly. Which undermines the premise of rejecting bourgeois legal systems (which I think was Brogdale's point).