SWP expulsions and squabbles

[sihhi]

"Alex conceded that the party should be prepared to experiment and acknowledged that there had been a collective failure by the party to integrate students. But that mistake stemmed not from failing listening to students, but from “flattering” them excessively. He contrasted the withering treatment he had received as a young student radical from Tony Cliff."

...

One thing people noted at Marxism was the large number of older members and the relative absence of students.

 

[JHE]

on the drift away from our politics. which were clear in the failure of stop the war under John and Lindsey's leadership,to follow up the massive march of millions with gathering outside of parliament WHILE the vote on war was being taken.

Is Heffernan (a) suggesting that a protest outside Parliament on the day of the vote would have led to a defeat for the government or (b) coyly hinting that a big protest outside Parliament on the day of the vote could and should have led to the storming of Parliament?

 

[eoin_k]

It reminds me of the sense of betrayal mixed with relief I experienced when they redirected coaches, intended to take local Stop the War groups to participate in the mass actions at Fairford and Menwith Hill, to go on this demo. This sense of betrayal caused by them stopping people who wanted to get involved was only tempered by relief at the lack of paper sellers getting in the way on the day. Putting the party's agenda before that of any wider movement was firmly in the IS tradition . I would be embarrassed to use the term mass in relation to any aspect of the anti war movement as it would exaggerate what little relationship the whole affair had to most peoples everyday lives, but there was an attempt to generalise a more militant approach to opposing the war, which was weakened at this point by the SWP. Action at Fairford and Menwith Hill wasn't going to end the war, but nor were the masses going to storm parliament (if only they hadn't been betrayed by John and Lindsey cutting a deal with Clare).

 

[butchersapron]

Is Heffernan (a) suggesting that a protest outside Parliament on the day of the vote would have led to a defeat for the government or (b) coyly hinting that a big protest outside Parliament on the day of the vote could and should have led to the storming of Parliament?

Following Cliff who said something similar about the protests against mine closures in the early 90s:

Imagine if we had 15,000 members of the SWP and 30,000 supporters: the 21 October miners’ demonstration could have been different. Instead of marching round Hyde Park, socialists could have taken 40 or 50,000 people to parliament.

If that had happened, the Tory MPs wouldn’t have dared vote with Michael Heseltine. The government would have collapsed.

This prospect is not unrealistic or romantic. The number of socialists organised together is important in determining the outcome of the struggle.

Over the last three months the Socialist Workers Party has recruited 2,500 people. We could have recruited many more because our ideas fit with the ideas of tens of thousands of workers. Every member is valuable because another confrontation like 21 October is coming.

 

[treelover]

"paper sales are not where it is at. the SWP is finished. respect is the way forward"

he got that half right and a bit early


btw, that whole article just shows the SWP for what they are, and of course, brings Ree's Counterfire and indeed the Peoples Assembly into question...

 

[andysays]

... Putting the party's agenda before that of any wider movement was, [is and ever will be] firmly in the IS tradition ...

If we had to boil this thread down into one easily understood sentence, that would be it

 

[andysays]

cliff said:

Imagine if we had 15,000 members of the SWP and 30,000 supporters...​

​

john lennon said:

Imagine no possessions,it's easy if you try...​

 

[sihhi]

That's, of course, to leave aside the idiocy and dishonesty (sorry, the non-leninism) of the CC she demonstrates here. And also to leave aside the case that she and others put forward over the years that the SWP is an example of modern functioning leninism. The logic goes something like this: leninism is good, doing good things must therefore be leninism. Doing wrong things mean that you're not leninist (this is pretty clear in her comments). Behind this is of course is the idea that leninism can do no wrong by definition. I can't see much difference with the swp cc there frankly.

What do you make of the SWP autonomism analysis this year?

Doug concluded that autonomism does not address the problem of the state. It can be attractive in a period of struggle, but difficulties arise when struggle goes down. If “autonomism is the inspiration, Leninism is the answer”, he said.

http://revolutionarysocialism.tumblr.com/post/55595428318/m2013-doug-m-on-autonomism

 

[butchersapron]

It's the usual stuff isn't it - autonomism has no analysis of the state (utterly wrong), atuonomism is anti-party (autonomist parties had vastly more members in italy than all the trot groups in this country and that combined), they have no class analysis (wrong, you just don't understand what a largely unrelated term - 'mutlitude' actually means, they are anti-leninism (wrong, they tried to establish a practice of mass-leninism, mass vanguardism - which was one of the reasons for the post-77 failures ). Just hopeless stuff. They have no interest in it (and i 'm not comfortable talkin in terms of 'it' really) beyond warning people off.

 

[sihhi]

What do you make of this?

Stop the War was characterised as the multitude on the streets, but it didn’t win. Not because direct action and protests aren’t important, but because there were no strikes or resistance in the workplace.

Who characterised the Stop the War Coalition as a multitude? Do you remember it being spoken of in this way?

I think this :

Doug stating that autonomism comes in many forms and that perhaps different autonomists wouldn’t agree with his definition. But a common theme was the rejection of political organisation and parties. Autonomism is characterised by non-hierarchical organisations with open, consensus democracy – something seen in the Occupy movement.
is the handy get out.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Ron Margulies from DSIP, our Turkish sister organisation, spoke next. He noted how the absence of formal leadership in the recent Taksim Square occupation had allowed older, bureaucratic and more unrepresentative forces to take on that mantle of leadership instead.


Ron Margulies

Yawn. In his capacity as?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I heard there were far more at the fringe meeting on feminism than in any of the Marxism ones.

you heard wrong

 

[sihhi]

Yawn. In his capacity as?

As pro-constitution intellectual alongside poet Bejan Matur likewise, what else .

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I can't see much difference with the swp cc there frankly.

Might have thought she'd get on your nerves more than most. Cause unlike most she's not deserting the politics.

 

[comrade spurski]

bolshiebhoy said: ↑

On the sexual allegations and how they we handled yes. but only on that, all this "Cliff was wrong to change his mind on Luxemburg, let's recreate Beyond the Fragments" palaver is a crock. And the louder the Syriza wannabes get the more I wish the cc would get the delta stuff off the backs of those who should be out defending their tradition with an easy conscience.​

maybe you should be wishing the cc resign for completely fucking up such a easy to deal with situation.
maybe you should also question your continued involvement in the swp.
A socialist party is supposed to be a tool ... surely if the tool is broken you should stop using it...and broken is the only way to describe to describe the swp. Actually that's not strictly true...fucked up, misogynistic, disgraceful and stalinist could also be used.

I seriously do not understand how anyone is still involved in it.

It's very difficult to take you seriously when you conveniently ignore questions and points yet respond to others about meeting sizes. I made the above point to one of your previous posts but you simply ignored it. You act like everyone who disagrees with is bound to as they are anti swp so therefore their opinions are somehow tainted.
I don't agree with all I read on here but as a trade unionist and a socialist and as someone who considers themselves a decent human being I do not understand how the fuck the swp fucked up such a simple and easy to deal with situation...and do not understand how anyone can pretend the "crisis" in the swp is anything but self inflicted damage caused by their fucking appalling treatment of a woman.

 

[newbie]

Stop the War was characterised as the multitude on the streets, but it didn’t win. Not because direct action and protests aren’t important, but because there were no strikes or resistance in the workplace.

that was one of my overriding impressions at the time: that the SWPs main, possibly only, idea was that the way to stop the war was for trades unionists to go on strike. A to B marches came into it, of course, but every single piece of SWP or StWC propaganda implored us to go on strike. That's their tradition, along with doing their best to keep the lid on anything like 'direct action'.

which is all very well, but it had as little to do with the real world in 2003 as it does now.

 

[emanymton]

that was one of my overriding impressions at the time: that the SWPs main, possibly only, idea was that the way to stop the war was for trades unionists to go on strike. A to B marches came into it, of course, but every single piece of SWP or StWC propaganda implored us to go on strike. That's their tradition, along with doing their best to keep the lid on anything like 'direct action'.

which is all very well, but it had as little to do with the real world in 2003 as it does now.

What do you think could have stopped the war, if anything?

 

[newbie]

lobbying Clare Short. Obviously.






my point is not what would, or even could, have worked but what was patently obviously nothing whatsoever to do with anything, yet was the main focus of everything they produced.

 

[comrade spurski]

that was one of my overriding impressions at the time: that the SWPs main, possibly only, idea was that the way to stop the war was for trades unionists to go on strike. A to B marches came into it, of course, but every single piece of SWP or StWC propaganda implored us to go on strike. That's their tradition, along with doing their best to keep the lid on anything like 'direct action'.

which is all very well, but it had as little to do with the real world in 2003 as it does now.

I ain't digging at you ... just asking ... isn't strike action a form of direct action?
I agree that they should not be put in competition with eachother...it was kind of like that with the Poll Tax... SP (then Militant) and SWP arguing continuously about non payment v non collection by council workers...

 

[newbie]

I ain't digging at you ... just asking ... isn't strike action a form of direct action?

yes, of course it is. But while buildings were occupied, fences were cut, recruiting offices were blockaded and roads were were sat on all over the country I doubt if strike action against the war was discussed by more than half a dozen people anywhere. I vaguely recall two workers being lauded for a token strike lasting an hour or so, apart from that... well the schoolkids stole the show and they were never on the SWPs radar.

But the IS tradition has to be upheld

 

[comrade spurski]

yes, of course it is. But while buildings were occupied, fences were cut, recruiting offices were blockaded and roads were were sat on all over the country I doubt if strike action against the war was discussed by more than half a dozen people anywhere. I vaguely recall two workers being lauded for a token strike lasting an hour or so, apart from that... well the schoolkids stole the show and they were never on the SWPs radar.

But the IS tradition has to be upheld

I agree re strike possiblities over the war were non existent

I was just asking your opinion

 

[emanymton]

yes, of course it is. But while buildings were occupied, fences were cut, recruiting offices were blockaded and roads were were sat on all over the country I doubt if strike action against the war was discussed by more than half a dozen people anywhere. I vaguely recall two workers being lauded for a token strike lasting an hour or so, apart from that... well the schoolkids stole the show and they were never on the SWPs radar.

But the IS tradition has to be upheld

i am sorry but the last bit about school kids is utter rubbish, I was in the SWP at the time and it obsesed over school kids / FE students. Really got on my fucking nerves after a bit. As for the other stuff, I blockaded recruitment offices and the BBC all while I was in the SWP. I don't think it is direction the SWP has a problem with, it is direct action they don't call for.

Oh and comrade spurski is quite right that striking is the ultimate form of direct action.

 

[comrade spurski]

Fully agree

 

[butchersapron]

Depends how the strike is organised, by who, what it's for, what part of the capitalist cycle it effects and so on. It's a form of refusal the same as other forms of direct action - they rarely have a radical content just because they're strikes, but because of the above.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I feel sad that the SWP has got itself into this mess. Now would have been a good time for a revolutionary organisation to be gathering together all the forces of opposition to Capitalism. Instead it is talking to itself in small rooms. If I was a Capitalist I would be celebrating with champagne and gunfire.

 

[JHE]

If I was a Capitalist I would be celebrating with champagne and gunfire.

Really? How many capitalists could give a shit what happens to this fractious little bunch of Trotlets? Perhaps whoever the Social Workers now pay to print their propaganda rag, leaflets, posters and placards would prefer to keep the custom... but apart from that?

 

[newbie]

i am sorry but the last bit about school kids is utter rubbish, I was in the SWP at the time and it obsesed over school kids / FE students. Really got on my fucking nerves after a bit. As for the other stuff, I blockaded recruitment offices and the BBC all while I was in the SWP. I don't think it is direction the SWP has a problem with, it is direct action they don't call for.

Oh and comrade spurski is quite right that striking is the ultimate form of direct action.

before the schoolstudents did their first walkouts, or after? If before, I stand corrected.

Promoting strikes remains the ultimate form of the IS tradition.

 

[comrade spurski]

I feel sad that the SWP has got itself into this mess. Now would have been a good time for a revolutionary organisation to be gathering together all the forces of opposition to Capitalism. Instead it is talking to itself in small rooms. If I was a Capitalist I would be celebrating with champagne and gunfire.

I dont think the swp is just talking to itself in small rooms to be honest. I thinkit has broken a central idea that goes beyond a theory or a tactic...it chose to protect a man by behaving despicably to a woman...simply because the man was considered too important to be got rid off. A leading cc member of a revolutionary organisation who was nearly 50 and had been in the swp for 30 years and had worked for it for over 20 years made a decision to embark on a sexual relationship with a 17 yr ... that is a serious power imbalance and a fucking huge error of judgement at best from a supposed revolutionary leader...for the swp to deny that he did anything untoward when she later made a complaint about him behaving inappropriately is shocking....especially given that they correctly expelled someone years previously for sleeping with a woman who was too drunk to remember if she'd consented to sex.I guess they could be privcipled then cos the bloke in question wasn't important. Anyhow after failing the female member they then decided they could investigate her complaint of rape...found him innocent...questioned her behaviour and by implication said her allegation was false...they then justified those who heard the case by pointing out how many were women and that some were rape counsellors by profession while claiming that those who disagreed with the swps view were feminists as though being a feminist was like being a racist.
I'm sorry but that kind of behaviour is starlinism at its worst...self preservation and personal advancement above all else while claiming the political high ground

 

[bamboozled]

It's the usual stuff isn't it - autonomism has no analysis of the state (utterly wrong), atuonomism is anti-party (autonomist parties had vastly more members in italy than all the trot groups in this country and that combined), they have no class analysis (wrong, you just don't understand what a largely unrelated term - 'mutlitude' actually means, they are anti-leninism (wrong, they tried to establish a practice of mass-leninism, mass vanguardism - which was one of the reasons for the post-77 failures ). Just hopeless stuff. They have no interest in it (and i 'm not comfortable talkin in terms of 'it' really) beyond warning people off.

Very interesting. What do you recommend as the best place(s) to start to get a handle on autonomism's history and Italy? Any shorter key texts out there?

 

[emanymton]

before the schoolstudents did their first walkouts, or after? If before, I stand corrected.

Promoting strikes remains the ultimate form of the IS tradition.

Definitely before, but more so after. Of course the SWP is not uniform, different areas may have had different approaches.

Promoting strikes wherever possible should be the tradition of all socialists. But you are right the chance of it happening against the war was nil.