The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I am/was.
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
I am/was.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Still no news from Afed btw. I have had to advise would be applicants be wary about their lack of transparant safeguarding proceedures.
tony collins
Active Member
Its name does come from a time when there was an attempt to set up a "socialist unity network" of independent left wingers; so it's purely historical now - it doesn't have "unity" as a particular mission (cos what do we mean by "unity"? Whose? On what terms?). None of us would be averse to a change of name, I don't think.
It does have a very specific audience: Its audience is the broad trade union movement. It's one of the most popular sites on the left. So, roughly speaking, we publish a mixture of deep and shallow politics, deep and shallow culture, moans and groans, and some theoretical stuff, that our audience likes.
I can't give you a mission statement cos there isn't one. So it's necessarily broad and vague. We try to write about stuff going on in the union movement, for sure - and I think we worked out that 1 to 1.5% of our articles are about the SWP.
One of the reasons I'm involved is to sharpen it up a bit, to give it more focus. That all takes a long long time, cos I'm a train driver and so I can't do any work on the site during working hours. We've all got working lives, so what we do has to be done in our spare time. But over time, we want to have more direction for the site, more diverse opinions on the left, more guest posts, and much broader discussions.
tony collins
Active Member
Well I wouldn't mind if, given that you don't know me at all, you don't start off from the assumption that I'm a prick. I don't really write much for the site - most of my words are in the comments threads, cos I'm camera shy.
So look, I'm genuinely interested. I don't know if I know you, I don't recognise your screen name, so maybe we hate each other and maybe we don't. Maybe you know me from other places, I dunno.
I've answered the "project" bit above - it's looser and vaguer than it should be, but it's a broad left site that posts a broad range of stuff for a broad left audience. And some sports stuff; Dave Zirin's had a few pieces published.
I just said all that cos, assuming you're on the left, I really do want to know what you mean when you say it's an exemplar of what's wrong on the British left. I think I might agree with you in some ways, and I think the rest of SU's people might agree with you too. There's a lot of macho posturing, there seems to be a lot of attacks on the hard left, the comments can be very aggressive - but if you're only an occasional reader, it can be hard to gauge what you've seen.
I guess if I've got a personal mission, it's to provide a really serious range of left wing voices to a really diverse audience, and one that doesn't seek to impose a way of thinking and isn't boring. But that's hard given that it's all online. I know for certain that we want to get more writing from actual union members involved in actual workplaces, and we want more political sports writing. I also want the comments to be a welcoming place, and it's possible that you haven't seen just how much that's changed since I got involved. As a general rule, comments are much more thoughtful and genuine now, cos people aren't given the chance to be big and macho all the time. You might still think that makes me a prick, but if my years in the SWP taught me anything, it's that you've got to give people a chance to work these things out rather than assume that just cos they've got a voice, they're always gonna know exactly how to use it best.
Anyway I'm guessing this is widely off-topic. I'd genuinely be happy to talk more about it, here or in private message - cos there are plenty of voices in here that I'd love to read on there. The main thrust here is, SU has a really big audience, so it's clearly got something worth preserving and developing.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
wow!TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
is there any way forward?
tony collins
Active Member
But that's just random isn't it? There are weeks when we've got a lot of book and film reviews, there are weeks when all we're doing is reporting on stuff in other countries.
But please don't put words into my mouth, it's really unhelpful in debate. I didn't say "the latest crop of postings are the way forward"; I think we have good weeks and bad weeks, I think that our audience wants more about Palestine and much more about austerity. We've posted a lot about the anti-bedroom tax campaigns, but I can guarantee that when people talk about SU, all they'll remember is the one we posted about people trying to undermine Sheridan. We seem to generate a lot of false memories.
In my queue of things, I've got a book someone's sent me asking to review on the history of the Occupy movement, something about disability discrimination in unions, a cross-post about organising on the left. Might all be great, might all be boring.
The issue is that it's a site that runs a broad range of articles. For the last few months it's been SWP-heavy; other times it'll not feature other left wing groups for months.
And *now* I think we're way off-topic so I'm gonna leave it for a while. I'll tell you one thing though - the site tagging/categories/search is so bad, so completely messed up, I can't prove anything to you. I wish I could say "look at all this", but it's part of the long-term plan - with over 7,000 articles, we've actually got quite a good archive of material now.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
did they cover up a rape? Think you need to get down to the police if you have evidence of that.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You need to give up the RAF/North Korea and rosy-cheeked newmans stuff the heave-ho. He's holding you back.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I think it's on topic enough.
Tony, it's nowt personal, you might well be a nice guy. I'm probably not! We don't know each other. I don't move in lefty circles these days.
But it's not Tony Collins I'm calling a prick.
It's tony collins from Socialist Unity.
Why?
Cos SU manages to be both parasitical and irrelevant at the same time. It's divisive and provides a platform for he deluded, he sectarian, the asocial and the -putting it crudely- weirdos that typify the worst of the left.
As for the articles themselves? Flip flopping through the liturgy of the failed left from Galloway to Palestine to lefty bickering to labour apologetics.
It's this left that the w/c has rejected. Overwhelmingly and repeatedly. And in this, you are utterly indistinguishable from the SWP.
You say your audience is the "broad trade union movement", leaving aside for a moment the vitality of this audience, my first question to you is What are trying to say to them? And why?
Tony, it's nowt personal, you might well be a nice guy. I'm probably not! We don't know each other. I don't move in lefty circles these days.
But it's not Tony Collins I'm calling a prick.
It's tony collins from Socialist Unity.
Why?
Cos SU manages to be both parasitical and irrelevant at the same time. It's divisive and provides a platform for he deluded, he sectarian, the asocial and the -putting it crudely- weirdos that typify the worst of the left.
As for the articles themselves? Flip flopping through the liturgy of the failed left from Galloway to Palestine to lefty bickering to labour apologetics.
It's this left that the w/c has rejected. Overwhelmingly and repeatedly. And in this, you are utterly indistinguishable from the SWP.
You say your audience is the "broad trade union movement", leaving aside for a moment the vitality of this audience, my first question to you is What are trying to say to them? And why?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
which are the pieces that get most views and comments, tony? I'd hazard a guess its the lefty navel gazing stuff. People used to get the Weakly Wanker for the gossip, not for Jack Conrads articles.
can think of a few we'd like you to have too.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
I'm no expert either, but I do understand that. Obviously the emotional damage of being raped by somebody you know is a serious and real consequence of rape. But I wasn't making a specific comment on whether the victim knows their attacker or not; just because a victim knows an attacker doesn't mean at all that the rape isn't of the (for want of a better way of describing this) more violent type which I described. Therefore it seems to me that the scars left by rape can be both 1) deeper scars if the victim knew their attacker and 2) scars the depth of which correlates to the level of violence involved. It seems to me that every rape is a violent act, but it is also not incorrect to say that there are levels of violence... I know I'm explaining this incredibly badly because I'm struggling to explain what I mean without implying that some rapes are 'less serious', which is not what I want to say. I guess what I mean is that all rapes are by definition violent and abusive acts, but that it is wrong to say that one rape necessarily has qualitatively the same negative impact on a victim than another. At least I think that's what I'm trying to say.
Not defending SU, but go on, tell us what is, your personal opinion, cos that's all it is...
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Bolshiebhoy will you do anything to defend the central committee and discredit the opposition, is there no limits?
The latest is that you have dismissed accusations of bullying despite knowing absolutely about the details. But you just write it off as certain kinds of feminists whinging.
Can you imagine, for instance, if after the woman who accussed the Lib Dem Lord of sexual harrassment/assault, someone defending the Lib Dem in public had reacted with the line that he should have "kept his dick in his trousers" and that there was a problem with "certain kinds of feminists". Expect that in this case your comments, if anything, are even worse, as there has not only been an allegation towards Delta of sexual harassment, another woman has alleged that he raped her. Do you seriously see your kinds of comments as appropriate? Or does it not matter because at all costs the IS tradition has to be defended. A tradition, incidentally that appears to have achieved very little and has let to a situation where they are more isolated than ever, with even more useless fronts than ever, and no idea of how to go forward other than going around in circles.
What is certain is that Delta thought it was perfectly ok, as a 48 year old leader of the SWP, to sleep with two women, one who was 17, and the other not much older. Yet this all gets swept under the carpet by people like you from the loyalist side by the pathetic defence that it is ok because you don't accept bourgeois morals, and heh you slept with a 17 year old when you were 22 so it's all ok. As if that's the only people who would have concerns about this. Indeed you'd think that if anything, socialists would have more concern. Unless of course they think that it's ok for a socialist organisation to be used by middle aged men to sleep around with teenage women from a position of leadership.
There is still the Sheffield case, where an organiser of the SWP was accussed of rape, sexual harrassment, attacking his partner, and general sexism and misogyny. It's still not clear exactly what the central committee accepted he had done, but they suspended him for two years, the same "sentence" they gave to four people for discussing internal SWP business on facebook. They then thought it was a good idea, despite accepting at least some of the allegations were true, that they should praise him for being a great organiser, give him some SWP literature on women and say they welcome him back to the fold. This was the official position of the CC. Or does this all get swept under the carpet as well because there were "certain kinds of feminists" making the complaints, and heh hoh, everyone can change.
These cases don't come out of nowhere. They come out of the stalinist politics and method of the SWP which puts itself as an organisation before anything else, including the working class which it is ever more isolated from. The fact that SWP loyalist trade unionists I know are now going round saying that it's all lies, despite knowing fuck all about the case, is also reflective of this (I have also seen the surge of paper selling outside workplaces that Past Caring talked about).
You and RMP3 can go around all you like talking about abstract debates, but it doesn't change what has happened.
The latest is that you have dismissed accusations of bullying despite knowing absolutely about the details. But you just write it off as certain kinds of feminists whinging.
Can you imagine, for instance, if after the woman who accussed the Lib Dem Lord of sexual harrassment/assault, someone defending the Lib Dem in public had reacted with the line that he should have "kept his dick in his trousers" and that there was a problem with "certain kinds of feminists". Expect that in this case your comments, if anything, are even worse, as there has not only been an allegation towards Delta of sexual harassment, another woman has alleged that he raped her. Do you seriously see your kinds of comments as appropriate? Or does it not matter because at all costs the IS tradition has to be defended. A tradition, incidentally that appears to have achieved very little and has let to a situation where they are more isolated than ever, with even more useless fronts than ever, and no idea of how to go forward other than going around in circles.
What is certain is that Delta thought it was perfectly ok, as a 48 year old leader of the SWP, to sleep with two women, one who was 17, and the other not much older. Yet this all gets swept under the carpet by people like you from the loyalist side by the pathetic defence that it is ok because you don't accept bourgeois morals, and heh you slept with a 17 year old when you were 22 so it's all ok. As if that's the only people who would have concerns about this. Indeed you'd think that if anything, socialists would have more concern. Unless of course they think that it's ok for a socialist organisation to be used by middle aged men to sleep around with teenage women from a position of leadership.
There is still the Sheffield case, where an organiser of the SWP was accussed of rape, sexual harrassment, attacking his partner, and general sexism and misogyny. It's still not clear exactly what the central committee accepted he had done, but they suspended him for two years, the same "sentence" they gave to four people for discussing internal SWP business on facebook. They then thought it was a good idea, despite accepting at least some of the allegations were true, that they should praise him for being a great organiser, give him some SWP literature on women and say they welcome him back to the fold. This was the official position of the CC. Or does this all get swept under the carpet as well because there were "certain kinds of feminists" making the complaints, and heh hoh, everyone can change.
These cases don't come out of nowhere. They come out of the stalinist politics and method of the SWP which puts itself as an organisation before anything else, including the working class which it is ever more isolated from. The fact that SWP loyalist trade unionists I know are now going round saying that it's all lies, despite knowing fuck all about the case, is also reflective of this (I have also seen the surge of paper selling outside workplaces that Past Caring talked about).
You and RMP3 can go around all you like talking about abstract debates, but it doesn't change what has happened.
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
As a Socialist Party member I don't feel particularly welcome at a place that refers to the organisation I'm part of as a sect or a cult.
I'm not keen on the bullying behavior I've seen of commentators who don't fit the narrow 'in group' of opinions.
It's not just that people slag off SP posters, people do it here as well but I don't mind it at all. The reason is I never sense any sort of malevolence from people criticizing the SP here whereas that's most definitely the vibe from a lot of folks I get on SU. I think a lot of people who don't fit the mould feel the same as well.
SU is a deeply unpleasant place in much the same way Lenin's Tomb is. They're both headed by people who far too pleased with how clever they are and they both have a bullying, nasty clique of regular commentators completely intolerant of genuinely dissenting views.[/quote]
I'm not keen on the bullying behavior I've seen of commentators who don't fit the narrow 'in group' of opinions.
It's not just that people slag off SP posters, people do it here as well but I don't mind it at all. The reason is I never sense any sort of malevolence from people criticizing the SP here whereas that's most definitely the vibe from a lot of folks I get on SU. I think a lot of people who don't fit the mould feel the same as well.
SU is a deeply unpleasant place in much the same way Lenin's Tomb is. They're both headed by people who far too pleased with how clever they are and they both have a bullying, nasty clique of regular commentators completely intolerant of genuinely dissenting views.[/quote]
Ahem , SWP thread on here...
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
I don't know either way. But they thought it was ok when an allegation of rape was made to investigate using a panel of seven of his mates and to give her evidence to the accused, but not let her know what he had said.
They also thought it was ok to suspend for the Sheffield organiser for just two years and to praise him for what a great organiser he was.
"These cases don't come out of nowhere. They come out of the stalinist politics and method of the SWP which puts itself as an organisation before anything else, including the working class which it is ever more isolated from. The fact that SWP loyalist trade unionists I know are now going round saying that it's all lies, despite knowing fuck all about the case, is also reflective of this (I have also seen the surge of paper selling outside workplaces that Past Caring talked about).
Not just damaged political subcultures, but others: the rave culture/scene had plenty of this sort of power unbalanced behaviour, where especially the high priests of the scene such as D.J's and promoters, even the addicted and be-draggled, sought out the young ones...
Not just damaged political subcultures, but others: the rave culture/scene had plenty of this sort of power unbalanced behaviour, where especially the high priests of the scene such as D.J's and promoters, even the addicted and be-draggled, sought out the young ones...
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Tony - you'll know me under another name and I don't post as much on SU as I used to. I'm an SP member and I'd say there are three things that mean I post less:
1) The attitude towards people who see no future in the Labour Party is in my experience incredibly rude and alienating. Obviously if the people who run the site are basically pro-Labour you'd expect them to say so, but whenever I used to comment on SU and this came up people almost never suggested or argued why they think there is still a fight to be had within Labour (which I would have welcomed since I don't understand why anyone would have that position) and used to be frankly quite snide about it.
2) The articles are rarely critical of Labour. Recently, you've had articles promoting the Labour Left efforts to organise anti-bedroom tax protests and looking back at the 1983 manifesto. Don't you think the behaviour of the PLP over the workfare vote is worthy of mention? I do - I think if Newman or anyone else wants us to rejoin Labour and fight for it's soul or whatever, well, you owe us a post on their frankly disgusting position on workfare and the abstentions in Parliament. Even reposting what Michael Meacher had to say about it would be a start. You could do with addressing issues like what a Labour govt would look like if elected and this 'One Nation' Labour bullshit as well if you want the site to provide serious analysis of the circumstances facing the left in Britain.
3) I understand totally why the people who run SU have bad blood with the SWP. However, I think sometimes that results in an obsession with their organisation. I also think that quite often other sections of the far left are assumed to be exactly the same as the SWP, which is frustrating as well as unfair.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
[/quote]
I'd agree with all of this. On Urban there are people who fundamentally disagree with the SP and say so, but even when they're taking the piss it's always in a fairly fraternal fashion. That just isn't the case on SU, where we're constantly told that we're a cult or a sect and there's always dark hints that our internal culture is like as not just as bad as the SWP's.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
And of course cardinal newman's insistence that us justice is brilliant for Gary McKinnon, but terrible. For Julian Assange.
Or his bloodthirsty witch hunting of anarchists http://socialistunity.com/anarchists-enemies-of-the-labour-movement/#.UVMNPssgGSM
Or his bloodthirsty witch hunting of anarchists http://socialistunity.com/anarchists-enemies-of-the-labour-movement/#.UVMNPssgGSM
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
If i remember right because of this article: Tolpuddle and Swing: The Flea and the Elephant - and the SW TUC have this last week attempted to ban related people from speaking about the radical origins of mayday this year. Same mentality.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
That the left as represented by the likes of SU and the SWP has failed isn't an opinion, it's an observation.
...and I've posted many, many times what I think should be done instead. But, save a pain in the ass search, put crudely I'd say starting from scratch, bottom up, rebuilding the ideas of mutual aid, solidarity and self-organisation, and then putting these not practice.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Last two pamphlets published(december 2012 and feb 2013):
Yet the group is:
old rosy cheeks said:
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