Bolshiebhoy reminds me of one of the Civil War Bolsheviks that I read about (in Sheila Fitzpatrick's books I think). The peaceful, gradual period of the 1920s distressed these Party members; they wanted a return to the siege mentality, the sacrifices, the extremities of the civil war years.
SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
So because Marx did it, that's ok?
I think anyone with any political principles would leave the SWP at this point. They were a fairly worthless group before this happened anyway.
As for the other two questions, where have I said that?
Not surprised you don't want to go over it all again given it shows your leadership in such a bad light. Oh no, I forgot, you aren't in the SWP are you, you just spend a massive amount of time defending them.
They've lost any respect from their former members (apart from one), they've lost respect from a large chunk of their membership, they've alienated themselves from Trade Unionists and students that are aware of this, and they've been made to look like a joke to those that read about the saga in the mainstream media. The only way they can recruit now is to hope that potential new members haven't heard about this debacle.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
what I tried to explain is, besides in your head, I don't know where this happens. It doesn't happen at Bookmarks.
I haven't been to a branch meeting, district meeting, Marxism, bookmarks bookshop, TUC bookstall where there haven't been upon their bookstalls the "originals written by long dead comrades".
The way you frame your argument, suggests sw conspired to shepherd people away from reading the original texts because sw believe, if people read the original text, people will come to different conclusions to the SWP? But this is not true, because they genuinely believe their interpretation is correct, just like you genuinely believe your interpretation is correct.
You even suggest there is a conspiracy to "screw people". The socialist bookshop, in fact the entire organisation, exist within the financial constraints of capitalism. If anything, I can see bookmarks going bankrupt, rather than providing a Dacha in the country.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
They liked the burning and looting, the pillaging and shooting! They didn't particularly like it when we (Ukrainian anarchists) stuck bayonets in Red Army officers and liberated their conscripts, though!
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
well go back and admonish other people laughing and taking the piss in this thread, and I might take your moralism a little more genuinely.
butcers = obnoxious. Whether it is me on the SWP it almost always renders down to, personal abuse.
PS. Yes, I did initially do that. They have cried wolf so many times on here, I thought this was another occasion. But what I actually did, is go to a different thread, and talk about issues I was interested in. Since Moore has come out, I've actually changed my position on the SWP. Well, for now.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
wtf where did I say that?
so that is a yes, everybody
so that is no?
my position is pretty much the same as Pat Stack's.
Where have I defended anything about the rape allegation? You CAN defend a version of Trotskyism from distortion, without defending the org.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I haven't said it happens in Bookmarks, Oddjob.
Where they're sold alongside the favoured tomes, which tend to be cheaper.
You really don't understand the basics of marketing at all, do you?
I read stuff to see what it says, not to find beliefs in what I read. I don't need to interpret what's written because I don't intend to proselytise a particular viewpoint. This is where you and your ilk fall down. You assume that others must be doing what you do - that they must be seeking to shore up some set of beliefs around a text or an ideology.
You even suggest there is a conspiracy to "screw people". The socialist bookshop, in fact the entire organisation, exist within the financial constraints of capitalism. If anything, I can see bookmarks going bankrupt, rather than providing a Dacha in the country.
It's quite possible to run a bookshop efficiently on an absolute shoestring, selling books at well under their RRP. You don't have to be Amazon to achieve that. What's interesting from your price list of Marx's works is that they're all being charged at RRP. Books are sold to retailers by the publishers at anything between 45% and 65% of the cover price, dependent on possible sales and book format, plus volume discounts come into play - buy 30 copies of Capital bk 1 and you get them cheaper per unit than if you only bought 1-5 copies. A lot of booksellers (the vast majority, whether they're a small indie or a large chain) pass at least part of that discount on to the customer. Not the bookseller you got that pricelist from, though. They're keeping all that extracted surplus value for themselves.
Bankrupt? If they did it'd be through ineptitude, not because they were minimising costs to comrades.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
He sort of has a point. Some rump of the pro-CC faction will "emerge" from this, having decided that, say, June 2013 is the Year Zero of a new and improved SWP, and they'll attempt to carry on as before, as if nothing happened.
It won't be the party that BB is hoping for, though. It'll be a narrow and even more doctrinaire party that'll be even more prone to expulsions and suspensions, and it'll draw fewer new members/activists from the ranks of students IMO.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That's exactly the party that BB is after - to complete his 80s retro bollocks.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
No-one has said the SWP will be "killed off", though. Your argument/tirade is based on a false assumption.
What people have repeatedly said is that the SWP will be changed. In fact it already has been, by its' own actions pre- and post-conference, and by the internet-enabled corrspondence between elements of the membership. And it'll continue to change, because the only way for it to survive is change, even if that change is reactionary and narrow.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I think a Asama-Sanso siege situation might be on the cards.But who will they expel for squaddism this time round the '80s?
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
But my moralism, as you put it, comes from you defending the SWP and their leadership. The other people I mention aren't like BB trying to equate these serious allegations with "keeping your dick in your trousers", or in your case trying to avoid the topic and go on about vague discussions about the IS tradition. A tradition which you and BB seem to hold as sacred but in reality has achieved sod all. You are BB are the ones who are out of order as you are the ones defending the indefensible.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Why mention it then?
Why are you repeating what I have said? I said, very clearly, that anyone with any principles would leave the SWP at this point.
You asked the question in the first place, despite it having nothing to do with my post.
Well the SWP is doing a very good job of trying to discredit socialism regardless of any distortion. Also the reason these things have happened in the SWP is partly because of the whole make up of the organisation and the political method they follow, which is basically little different from stalinism in terms of the organisations make up. They are an organisation which has, over the decades, routinely operated in a fundamentally dishonest way, have an internal (and external when they can get away with it) bullying and manipulative culture and a political method which has resulted in the farce of things like Unite the Resistance, Right to Work and whatever other front you care to mention. As such they are totally isolated from the working class, both in local communities and in the unions.
I knew you were an ow fella but didn't realise you were that old
Still at least you didn't drink yourself to death in a Citreon factory in France
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You did? Odd, I've just looked back over all my posts from 5pm onward last night, and not one of them has me answering that question, or you asking it.
No doubt, as usual when you're caught in a lie (which is quite often, isn't it?), you'll dissemble, lard your post with smilies and pretend you made a genuine mistake.
People know your tricks, though. They know you're a liar.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I knew you were an ow fella but didn't realise you were that old
"We" as in some of my forebears, you scrote!
A Renault factory, comrade, and the alcoholism was helped along by tuberculosis.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
we know how many people will be in that party. Initially there'll be the 512 who signd the CC statement. Quite how many are left a year later, when they finally notice no one else is joining, and no one is listening to them any more....
I think the thing is, out in the 'real world' they will no longer be given the benefit of the doubt. Whereas many people (not those on the P&P board, obviously) would think 'they're a bit full of shit, but are basically honest and trying to do some good', now, they will be seen simply as some sad, dishonest wankers only interested in themselves. Doomed.
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
I clicked on to this thread for my daily dose and the horrific sight that greeted me was a stream of posts by RMP3 even though I have him/her on ignore. Then I realised I wasn't logged in. Once I rectified this over sight, *poof* s/he was gone. Blessed relief!
ViolentPanda, O_S_S, butchersapron seriously folks, put RMP3 on ignore. Of course s/he is going to lie and fill up the comments box with insincere smilies and passive-aggresive posts, the point of his/her posts isn't to debate it's to provoke. I enjoy many of your posts and the points you make. You are all interesting and capable commenters but what you don't seem to get is that every time you engage with RMP3, every time you answer his/her lies and provocations, YOU LOSE.
If you want to wind up RMP3, get as many people as possible to ignore him, starting with yourselves.
ViolentPanda, O_S_S, butchersapron seriously folks, put RMP3 on ignore. Of course s/he is going to lie and fill up the comments box with insincere smilies and passive-aggresive posts, the point of his/her posts isn't to debate it's to provoke. I enjoy many of your posts and the points you make. You are all interesting and capable commenters but what you don't seem to get is that every time you engage with RMP3, every time you answer his/her lies and provocations, YOU LOSE.
If you want to wind up RMP3, get as many people as possible to ignore him, starting with yourselves.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Mate, i've been ignoring him for years, really - i think there's one response to him from me on this thread and it's 'fuck off' - i never reply to him - well very very rarely (which doesn't actually work as he just fills up more space trying to get me to reply, but that is marginally better then actually replying).
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
(or the cheka agents sent to kill him)"We" as in some of my forebears, you scrote!
A Renault factory, comrade, and the alcoholism was helped along by tuberculosis.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
But like a dinosaur, it'll take a long time for the message to be transmitted throughout the body.
I'm also a bit wary that this'll make 'em ever more prone to attempting to take over single-issue orgs.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
TBF, he had 16 years of them trying, so surviving the assassin's bullet (or syringe) that long was a bloody miracle!
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
annoyingly, the ones that stay in will tend to be the older buggers, who pay the high subs, and who will, therefore, keep the organisation going for a good while yet.But like a dinosaur, it'll take a long time for the message to be transmitted throughout the body.
I'm also a bit wary that this'll make 'em ever more prone to attempting to take over single-issue orgs.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
...and then the bequests...
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
which was the point of my link
give examples.
So you think they should charge more for their own publications? Contrary bugger.
still haven't answered the pointThe way you frame your argument, suggests sw conspired to shepherd people away from reading the original texts because sw believe, if people read the original text, people will come to different conclusions to the SWP? But this is not true, because they genuinely believe their interpretation is correct. In other words, why would you shepherd people away from the original text, if you believed people would come to the same conclusion as you?
But you do interpret Marx differently to the SWP. What you draw as the conclusions of what Marx wrote, are different to the conclusions the SWP draw?
for a house in the country?They're keeping all that extracted surplus value for themselves.
I live in a small town now. The high Street is shutting down, except for charity shops. Think that will catch up eventually, even in the big cities.
.
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