SWP expulsions and squabbles

[DotCommunist]

70 odd there - seymour and mielville included.

Mieville. You are thinking of Moby Dick.



Thats some list of resignees though. That has to do some real damage to the party as a whole. It'll limp on in some form obviously but thats surely got to be a proper knell

 

[Nigel Irritable]

The staying for the moment / leaving right now divide doesn't entirely map onto the hard / soft divide as far as I can tell. There are very oppositional people who are staying for the moment, which is going to add to the leadership's problems.

 

[discokermit]

You are thinking of Moby Dick.

callinicos as ahab. smith, the whale.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

http://internationalsocialismuk.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/a-new-network.html

And here's the new organisation.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

So a "network" and a discussion list. Note also the appeal to previous generations of ex-SWPers to join. I suspect that Counterfire will not be welcome however.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Is it going to be called International Socialist Network then? Coz that's very much like Independent Socialist Network ie these guys http://www.independentsocialistnetwork.org/ who are affiliated to TUSC as independents.

 

[SpineyNorman]

who are these members who aren't engaged enough to be involved with regular campaigns, but are loyal enough to side with the rape apologists without question? It doesn't make sense.

Sorry, should have been clearer - I meant those people have been the difference (in terms of membership numbers) between the SP and SWP. I have no idea whether they're the same people who were mobilised to defend the CC. Although there are some Sheffield names on the notorious list of 500 that I don't recognise so there's probably some crossover.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Is it going to be called International Socialist Network then? Coz that's very much like Independent Socialist Network ie these guys http://www.independentsocialistnetwork.org/ who are affiliated to TUSC as independents.

There's a long tradition of that on the left!

 

[kavenism]

callinicos as ahab. smith, the whale.

If only!
"And he piled upon the whale's great white hump the sum of all the rage
and hate felt by his whole race; if his chest had been a cannon, he'd have
shot his heart upon it."

 

[discokermit]

If only!
"And he piled upon the whale's great white hump the sum of all the rage
and hate felt by his whole race; if his chest had been a cannon, he'd have
shot his heart upon it."

isn't that a startrek quote?

the original: "He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it".

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fair enough, but is there some other shorthand term I can use?

Just say "people with disabilities", because that's who we are.

Have to say I was expecting a different argument - someone I know is very against this term, because she doesn't believe that being blind, deaf or in a wheelchair actually disadvantages anyone. By calling them disabled you are turning them into victims, so she tells me.

The disability or impairment you have does not necessarily disable you, what disables you is the way society treats you and reacts to you because of your impairment. Society most often does exactly what you unwittingly did, and reduces a person with disabilities to being a member of "the disabled", someone whose identity is governed by their disability, rather than their disability merely being a single facet of their identity. That disadvantages you the most.
Acknowledging the fact of a person's disability doesn't turn them into a victim, it only does that if you treat them as if their disability/impairment is their defining characteristic, and so treat them differently than anyone else for reasons unrelated to their particular impairment (you'd be amazed how many people still do the old "slow talking very loudly" to just about any person with a visible physical disability, as though we're all deaf and/or stupid).

 

[kavenism]

isn't that a startrek quote?

the original: "He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it".

That's a better rendering. I couldn't remember the exact wording and I think Google brought up the Star Trek version! Popular culture corrupts everything.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Just say "people with disabilities", because that's who we are.



The disability or impairment you have does not necessarily disable you, what disables you is the way society treats you and reacts to you because of your impairment. Society most often does exactly what you unwittingly did, and reduces a person with disabilities to being a member of "the disabled", someone whose identity is governed by their disability, rather than their disability merely being a single facet of their identity. That disadvantages you the most.
Acknowledging the fact of a person's disability doesn't turn them into a victim, it only does that if you treat them as if their disability/impairment is their defining characteristic, and so treat them differently than anyone else for reasons unrelated to their particular impairment (you'd be amazed how many people still do the old "slow talking very loudly" to just about any person with a visible physical disability, as though we're all deaf and/or stupid).

The person he's talking about actually does seem to think that acknowledging the disability turns people into victims. She also thinks that if people acknowledge their own vulnerability (which can mean all kinds of things, ex addicts and alcoholics are vulnerable to certain things, mentally ill people can be vulnerable in particular ways etc) they're indulging in victim culture. It's like she's heard the more sensible stuff you're talking about and taken it to an absurd conclusion. She does seem like quite a confused person though to be fair. It's pretty frustrating because it makes it virtually impossible to do anything constructive when she's around.

 

[discokermit]

That's a better rendering. I couldn't remember the exact wording and I think Google brought up the Star Trek version! Popular culture corrupts everything.

yeh, the original is much better. it is a crap analogy though, apart from the monomania and utter destruction.

 

[SpineyNorman]

A couple of CC loyalists I know are convinced that Rees and German have been pulling strings in this - and one of the Sheffield oppositionists has joined counterfire. Complete and utter paranoia or might there be an element of truth to it? I don't believe for a second they've been directing it lizard like but it's possible they've had the ear of some of them isn't it?

 

[kavenism]

A couple of CC loyalists I know are convinced that Rees and German have been pulling strings in this - and one of the Sheffield oppositionists has joined counterfire. Complete and utter paranoia or might there be an element of truth to it? I don't believe for a second they've been directing it lizard like but it's possible they've had the ear of some of them isn't it?

They're too busy raising money for a new espresso machine.

 

[SpineyNorman]

 

[Delroy Booth]

A couple of CC loyalists I know are convinced that Rees and German have been pulling strings in this - and one of the Sheffield oppositionists has joined counterfire. Complete and utter paranoia or might there be an element of truth to it? I don't believe for a second they've been directing it lizard like but it's possible they've had the ear of some of them isn't it?

If they're involved then why would they be setting up a new org, instead of recruiting them to counterfire?

 

[discokermit]

A couple of CC loyalists I know are convinced that Rees and German have been pulling strings in this - and one of the Sheffield oppositionists has joined counterfire. Complete and utter paranoia or might there be an element of truth to it? I don't believe for a second they've been directing it lizard like but it's possible they've had the ear of some of them isn't it?

doubtful.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Throughout all this the Seymour lot have had a funny relationship with Counterfire. The public utterances seemed to dwell on Rees and German's alleged bad faith for not having broken with the prof's model of dem cen earlier. And obviously so long as Seymour was at least pretending to want to stay he couldn't say nice things about them. But in all honesty don't they match his ideas pretty closely? They shared his enthuasiasm for Syriza as a 'new formation' and even a 'left centrism'. They are at least open to his identity politics tendencies. And all the precariat stuff is right up his alley. Can't be that long before they come to some sort of accommodation?

 

[J Ed]

Throughout all this the Seymour lot have had a funny relationship with Counterfire. The public utterances seemed to dwell on Rees and German's alleged bad faith for not having broken with the prof's model of dem cen earlier. And obviously so long as Seymour was at least pretending to want to stay he couldn't say nice things about them. But in all honesty don't they match his ideas pretty closely? They shared his enthuasiasm for Syriza as a 'new formation' and even a 'left centrism'. They are at least open to his identity politics tendencies. And all the precariat stuff is right up his alley. Can't be that long before they come to some sort of accommodation?

What I want to know is how all this is going to affect the Firebox menu

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Anyhows the really interesting question now is with the hard opposition gone what becomes of the majority of the faction. Can bridges be built?

 

[treelover]

Syriza formation, the new precariat, sounds ok to me...

 

[treelover]

What I want to know is how all this is going to affect the Firebox menu

Counterfire/COR are organising the massive People's Assembly in June which could be a seminal event



or just the usual with a demo in October, all too late as the deaths increase...

 

[Nigel Irritable]

If they're involved then why would they be setting up a new org, instead of recruiting them to counterfire?

Exactly. Counterfire have certainly been sticking their oar in, and they are certainly looking to recruit oppositionists. But the "hard" oppositionists were amongst the loudest people against Rees and German. There is a real hostility there. They won't be merging with Counterfire any time soon.

In the longer term, you never know though. In Scotland in particular, Bambery's lot will heavily outnumber them and may exert a certain draw. But for the moment at least I'd be extremely surprised if they went anywhere near Counterfire beyond possibly switching anti-cuts allegiances to the CoR. And the ex-SWP people they are attracting are, if anything, even more hostile to Rees and Co.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Anyhows the really interesting question now is with the hard opposition gone what becomes of the majority of the faction. Can bridges be built?

Worth noting that the hard opposition isn't entirely gone. There are some extremely disgruntled people intending on staying in for the moment.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Exactly. Counterfire have certainly been sticking their oar in, and they are certainly looking to recruit oppositionists. But the "hard" oppositionists were amongst the loudest people against Rees and German. There is a real hostility there. They won't be merging with Counterfire any time soon.

In the longer term, you never know though. In Scotland in particular, Bambery's lot will heavily outnumber them and may exert a certain draw. But for the moment at least I'd be extremely surprised if they went anywhere near Counterfire beyond possibly switching anti-cuts allegiances to the CoR. And the ex-SWP people they are attracting are, if anything, even more hostile to Rees and Co.

Yeah there's no love lost between Seymour and the counterfire lot. Depressing to see how counterfire are involved in this People's Assembly stuff, surely the experience of the Stop the War Coalition would be a warning of letting those particular people be involved in organising a new poiltical formation. What's that quote about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results every time being the definition of madness?

 

[Scribbling S]

I tried to persuade the angry SWP people I spoke to that if it all became completely hopeless that they should try a hostile takeover of Counterfire - that they probably had more folk, and that they plus some of the good people in Counterfire (and surely some of them are pretty ok ?) that they could run the place. This went down like a bucket of sick - so I think hostility to Counterfire as a German/Rees production is genuine, not "tactical" (I don't fully know why, but I haven't really grasped the SWP's internal politics since Respect). My other suggestion, a physical occupation of the "Centre" didn't appeal either. Personally I would also get myself expelled rather than resign if necessary by wearing a "Bob Jessop, my main man" t-shirt and distributing pamphlets I'd written called "Callinicos=Stallinicos". So maybe my tactical skills are a bit shaky.

 

[treelover]

Yeah there's no love lost between Seymour and the counterfire lot. Depressing to see how counterfire are involved in this People's Assembly stuff, surely the experience of the Stop the War Coalition would be a warning of letting those particular people be involved in organising a new poiltical formation. What's that quote about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results every time being the definition of madness?

People are desperate, really desperate for something to happen, a number would prefer some kind of more libertarian(those who know anything about the different perspectives) movement, but absolutely no sign of that, my worry is they will do the usual call a mass protest for October, they need to start planning now and vote at the P/A for one in July.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

One of those who resigned put this comment under the ISN announcement:

Just to say that we've had a heck of a response to this post, so do please all be patient and we will be getting round to adding everyone to the network as soon as we can.

Thanks