SWP expulsions and squabbles

[belboid]

Just for information that was the total number of votes for a motion . There was also a number of abstentions and non voting .

those who choose to 'non vote' rather than abstain always intrigue me.

But, even if we double the numbers to take this into account, its an astoundingly small number. Unless Swansea and Cardiff have separate aggregates (and even then...)

 

[osterberg]

those who choose to 'non vote' rather than abstain always intrigue me.

But, even if we double the numbers to take this into account, its an astoundingly small number. Unless Swansea and Cardiff have separate aggregates (and even then...)

The total number of votes for and against the motion I should have said . Which makes no differrence of course.

 

[brogdale]

You are suggesting that this should apply to revolutionary organsiations, the anarchist scene, hunt sabs or would you include the EDL. BNP etc in this as well?

No.
Everyone should be free to decide whether or not to engage with the police, and every civil organisation likewise.

But, if an organisation does decide against reporting I think they have a responsibility to make clear to the member the limitations of their investigation and response so that their personal decision is an informed one. My concern with the public statements from the CC was that they, perhaps mistakenly, gave the impression that the party's disciplinary committee could act as some substitute for the state's bourgeois, judicial process.

 

[brogdale]

even when going to the police is explicitly against the accuser's wishes? Even when doing so would undermine her confidence in you, your organisation and any investigation that would be undertaken? And any victim reporting criminal wrong-doing? Really? You'd insist on reporting it to the police if someone had swiped a kitkat from the office cupboard? Or for flyposting?

I meant serious criminal wrong-doing that allegedly caused harm to another member.

 

[belboid]

I meant serious criminal wrong-doing that allegedly caused harm to another member.

So only the first two questions remain relevant:
even when going to the police is explicitly against the accuser's wishes? Even when doing so would undermine her confidence in you, your organisation and any investigation that would be undertaken?

 

[brogdale]

So only the first two questions remain relevant:
even when going to the police is explicitly against the accuser's wishes? Even when doing so would undermine her confidence in you, your organisation and any investigation that would be undertaken?

wrt the other questions, that's obviously a decision for the organisation, but if the organisation were explicit about their position, either way, at the point where the member was about to report none of the undermining you invisage need occur.

 

[The39thStep]

No.
Everyone should be free to decide whether or not to engage with the police, and every civil organisation likewise.

But, if an organisation does decide against reporting I think they have a responsibility to make clear to the member the limitations of their investigation and response so that their personal decision is an informed one. My concern with the public statements from the CC was that they, perhaps mistakenly, gave the impression that the party's disciplinary committee could act as some substitute for the state's bourgeois, judicial process.

Would it be useful for some form of chartermark for organisations to sign up to ?

they, perhaps mistakenly, gave the impression that the party's disciplinary committee could act as some substitute for the state's bourgeois, judicial process

to whom and who aside from yourself is alleging this?

 

[belboid]

wrt the other questions, that's obviously a decision for the organisation, but if the organisation were explicit about their position, either way, at the point where the member was about to report none of the undermining you invisage need occur.

Really? I disagree. It would either undermine her confidence, or she would simply choose not to proceed at all - leaving an alleged rapist in post, uninvestigated. Both dreadful outcomes.

 

[butchersapron]

***oops, wrong thread***

 

[chilango]

Just for information that was the total number of votes for a motion . There was also a number of abstentions and non voting .

Cathays branch alone used to have more than that...y

 

[SpackleFrog]

No.
Everyone should be free to decide whether or not to engage with the police, and every civil organisation likewise.

But, if an organisation does decide against reporting I think they have a responsibility to make clear to the member the limitations of their investigation and response so that their personal decision is an informed one. My concern with the public statements from the CC was that they, perhaps mistakenly, gave the impression that the party's disciplinary committee could act as some substitute for the state's bourgeois, judicial process.

Good point. i don't think they'd have come out of this quite so badly if they had said or been able to say honestly and explicitly in the original report that they felt unequipped to deal with such a serious allegation, that they felt the courts would be better placed to do so and that they had only agreed to do so because the alleged victim didn't want to go to the police. Of course, that leads you on to the question of whether they can realistically take any action following their investigation.

 

[brogdale]

Really? I disagree. It would either undermine her confidence, or she would simply choose not to proceed at all - leaving an alleged rapist in post, uninvestigated. Both dreadful outcomes.

It might. But we have to concede that most civil organisations would engage with the bourgeois state if they were made aware of such a matter. It is the decision 'not to' that produces its own particular set of problems.

Of course, in this particular instance, the claimant appears to have been left with the alleged ("investigated")rapist in post despite proceeding with the party's own disciplinary proceedure.

 

[brogdale]

Would it be useful for some form of chartermark for organisations to sign up to ?

to whom and who aside from yourself is alleging this?

No, and I can't access the Kimber statement where the reference to the bourgeois state was made as the party notes have been updated.

 

[cesare]

Really? I disagree. It would either undermine her confidence, or she would simply choose not to proceed at all - leaving an alleged rapist in post, uninvestigated. Both dreadful outcomes.

But it's a fairly standard approach in civil organisations (using the step by step approach that I wrote out earlier), so why is a political organisation any different? And some of these SWP members are also trade unionists and therefore many are also familiar with what happens in civil organisations - is there no questioning as to why it's deemed appropriate in a business but not in a political organisation?

 

[belboid]

Civil organisations - and I am not really sure an organisation dedicated to the revolutionary overthrow of society should really be defined as such - would not agree to such an investigation without involving the police.

 

[brogdale]

Civil organisations - and I am not really sure an organisation dedicated to the revolutionary overthrow of society should really be defined as such - would not agree to such an investigation without involving the police.

Civil organisations - and I am not really sure an organisation dedicated to the revolutionary overthrow of society should really be defined as such - would not agree to such an investigation without involving the police.

Interesting one, that.
I'd not really thought of it before, but as the SWP is not family, state or market that does kind of leave it as a civil organisation.

 

[The39thStep]

Interesting one, that.
I'd not really thought of it before, but as the SWP is not family, state or market that does kind of leave it as a civil organisation.

civil or civic?

 

[Fedayn]

Civil organisations - and I am not really sure an organisation dedicated to the revolutionary overthrow of society should really be defined as such - would not agree to such an investigation without involving the police.

civil (unrest) organisations?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Hearing that there were more votes last night. Only result known us that Middlesborough branch voted for recall. More votes tonight.

 

[butchersapron]

Bambers (group) speaks!

More proper Leninism, much much more is what's required unsurprisingly.

 

[SpineyNorman]

If they can reach the conclusion that what's required is proper Leninism with extreme predge then they can probably become a permanent faction within PD.

Not Seymour though, he's too much of a smug cunt.

 

[audiotech]

'Leninism is Finished.'

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

civil or civic?

they've been very uncivil recently

 

[The39thStep]

Barry Mainwaring has been suspiciously quiet on the SWP question. Probably biding his time I would think.

 

[sihhi]

Bambers (group) speaks!

More proper Leninism, much much more is what's required unsurprisingly.

Can you or anyone explain this?

'But what should interest us…now, is not this or that thesis but the way in which each of them was produced. What should interest us is a style of thinking and action, a style that can be summed up as continuous and constant change in relation to the given situation. Lenin is the continuous redefinition of the given situation on the basis of the dynamic of the class struggle and of the spaces which open up from time to time, or which become closed, to the activism of the popular movement. Lenin is the minute attention to singularity, to the unrepeatability of each historic moment, to getting a concrete hold on an unprecedented condition, and thus to the constant mutation of the objective situation and of the subjects that act within it. Lenin, therefore, is a continuous movement of rupture in the face of convictions, of political lines and of organizational forms, which, having matured in a preceding situation, tend by inertia to repeat their problems and solutions and therefore to remain prisoners of the old class relations.'

 

[sihhi]

'Leninism is Finished.'

AKA 'Man from America says become Labour Left cheerleading group'

This is simply another way of stating that something like a British SYRIZA is necessary. Perhaps anticipating the struggle that has broken out now, Richard Seymour defended the Greek multi-tendency electoral formation in an open challenge to the SWP leadership.
I have no idea how the fight in the SWP will be resolved but I have a strong feeling that if the current gang is removed from the leadership, the party can be a powerful catalyst in moving Britain in the direction that Owen Jones outlined and that the revolutionary left contingent of SYRIZA in Greece is working toward. And if they are defeated, I would only hope that the comrades consider becoming part of a broad initiative that aims to unite the left on a nonsectarian basis.

What the hell is this nonsense?
SYRIZA's leadership is making deals in secret with the IMF, has promised a consensual foreign policy and is visiting Latin America on behalf of Greece so that the Greek government doesn't have to.

 

[Plumdaff]

So only the first two questions remain relevant:
even when going to the police is explicitly against the accuser's wishes? Even when doing so would undermine her confidence in you, your organisation and any investigation that would be undertaken?

What really shocked me was that it doesn't seem that the accuser was advised and supported in going to a specialist support organisation such as The Haven, who support people regardless of whether they decide to go to the police or not. That's the absolute basic action I would have expected, and it was the height of arrogance that the organisation seems to have felt it could perform that action too.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Can you or anyone explain this?

'But what should interest us…now, is not this or that thesis but the way in which each of them was produced. What should interest us is a style of thinking and action, a style that can be summed up as continuous and constant change in relation to the given situation. Lenin is the continuous redefinition of the given situation on the basis of the dynamic of the class struggle and of the spaces which open up from time to time, or which become closed, to the activism of the popular movement. Lenin is the minute attention to singularity, to the unrepeatability of each historic moment, to getting a concrete hold on an unprecedented condition, and thus to the constant mutation of the objective situation and of the subjects that act within it. Lenin, therefore, is a continuous movement of rupture in the face of convictions, of political lines and of organizational forms, which, having matured in a preceding situation, tend by inertia to repeat their problems and solutions and therefore to remain prisoners of the old class relations.'

View attachment 28295

Yes that is hard to understand. Maybe it has something to do with the translation from the Russian. A more common and well-known expression from Lenin, often referred to by Tony Cliff is "bending-the-stick". I read it defined as meaning "over exaggerating" somewhere recently but I have always thought it was meant as making compromises. I have difficulty in relating the origin of the phrase in the real world. What stick- I would ask? Sorry for the derail.

 

[The39thStep]

'Leninism is Finished.'

Or why we need a version of SYRIZA/socialist Alliance mark 2. Groundhog Day has never been closer

 

[The39thStep]

No, and I can't access the Kimber statement where the reference to the bourgeois state was made as the party notes have been updated.

So how would you get these civil organisations to move towards your advice?