Stephen Lawrence murder trial begins at Old Bailey

[coley]

aye, and I've a feeling they'll win it, as perhaps they should. Which saddens me because I believe they are racist murderers who should have been banged up a long time ago.

The headlines today seemed to be fairly unanimous that justice had been done, eventually. Everybody knew they did it, they shouldn't have got away with it for so long. That sentiment has been widespread for twenty odd years, like many others I first heard of them when I read about them on the front page of the Mail, and everything that's happened since has simply reinforced the well-known fact that they did it.

How can there be a jury untainted by those atmospherics? The presumption of guilt was tangible. Even the youngest jurors have spent their entire life with this coming up again and again with the constant theme that justice had not been done, everybody knew who did it, just as everybody knows that corrupt police were paid off by gangsters. No juror could consider an acquittal without anticipating that the massive weight of public opinion would think, and vociferously say or more likely SHOUT, that they'd got it wrong.

I'll be surprised if the appeal doesn't succeed.

.

Totally agree and I believe this is what will get them off, it will not be hard for any decent QC to make a case that it was impossible for them to recieve a fair trial, in fact I believe the defence will concentrate soley on this issue, as to introduce the forensics might allow the appeal court to rule in a guilty verdict.
All because of of police incomptence, corruption and racism 20 years ago.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That is not what I am saying at all.

Besides it reduces everything to the personal level. Sometimes if you want to influence a group of people you must find a way to do so from within the group - unless of course you prefer to indulge yourself in finger-wagging and tutting for the rest of your natural.

But you are the one reducing everything to the personal level. Your post makes no sense when you extend it to people you don't know. The idea that it's easier for black people to deal with racism from strangers than for white people to deal with racism from strangers is simply laughable, as is the idea that, when dealing with people you don't know, 'he's 'our' nigger/queer/etc'. You think gay-bashers don't pick on locals because they're locals?

 

[treelover]

'Eltham, like Britain, has changed since. Most markedly, what was once a bastion of the white working class has become every bit as racially diverse as the rest of the capital. In 1991, just 6.3 per cent of its population was black or from an ethnic minority. Today, that figure is 34 per cent – compared with 31 per cent for London as a whole.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...d-but-the-hate-goes-on-in-eltham-6285108.html

Its not just the tabloids that have articles about those dreadful white working class areas, estates,etc, the Indie has had a number of them over the last two days, including this one, note, 'bastion' is a military term for a fortress... though for the writer its just not 'hideously white' anymore..

 

[LiamO]

Indeed. I have to say the idea that it's in any way easier for black people growing up in an area full of white racists than white people who are not racist is rather strange.

Which is why I made such an effort to clarify exactly what I meant in my post... thereby making it more likely that any disingenuous wiberal lefty coming along afterwards and deliberately choosing to read what they would like me to have said, rather than what I actually wrote... look like a complete cunt.

Oh for the black & white, fundamentalist world you crave...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Its not just the tabloids that have articlea about those dreadful white working class areas, estates,etc, the Indie has had number of them over the last two days, including this one, note, 'bastion' is a military term for a fortress... though for the writer its just not 'hideously white' anymore..

Yep, they try to reduce things to simplistic narratives and are not averse to lying to do so. The same happened with the Mail's coverage of a racist murder in Hastings a couple of years ago, in which they used pictures from over a decade ago of derelict buildings that have since been totally renovated to paint a picture of a nasty dole-scum smackville-on-sea.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Which is why I made such an effort to clarify exactly what I meant in my post... thereby making it more likely that any disingenuous wiberal lefty coming along afterwards and deliberately choosing to read what they would like me to have said, rather than what I actually wrote... look like a complete cunt.

Oh for the black & white, fundamentalist world you crave...

You don't make any sense at all.

 

[LiamO]

But you are the one reducing everything to the personal level. Your post makes no sense when you extend it to people you don't know. The idea that it's easier for black people to deal with racism from strangers than for white people to deal with racism from strangers is simply laughable, as is the idea that, when dealing with people you don't know, 'he's 'our' nigger/queer/etc'. You think gay-bashers don't pick on locals because they're locals?

again with the strawmen? kiss my proletarian ringpiece

 

[DaveCinzano]

Probably not them grassing, but there'll be plenty of folk happy to talk now these two are safely away for a long, long time.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to anticipate that victims and witnesses of past incidents involving the Acourt-Norris gang/NTO will be more vocal (or rather, more heard) now that the first two have gone down - especially now that the Rolan Adams killing and other brutal assaults are also being revisited in the public square.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...gs-in-eltham-had-gone-unpunished-6284643.html

 

[littlebabyjesus]

again with the strawmen? kiss my proletarian ringpiece

I would argue with you, but I no longer have the first idea what you are saying. I suspect you don't either.

 

[LiamO]

The idea that it's easier for black people to deal with racism from strangers than for white people to deal with racism from strangers is simply laughable

EXACTLY. Which is why I said no such thing. Ever. But you already know this, don't you?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

1. If you are from that area/estate then your being a Local often 'trumps' your skin colour/religion/sexuality/politics etc. 'He might be a nigger/taig/queer/commie... but he is OUR....'

How true do you really think this is?

Ok, one last go. How is this a strawman?

 

[past caring]

But you are the one reducing everything to the personal level. Your post makes no sense when you extend it to people you don't know. The idea that it's easier for black people to deal with racism from strangers than for white people to deal with racism from strangers is simply laughable, as is the idea that, when dealing with people you don't know, 'he's 'our' nigger/queer/etc'. You think gay-bashers don't pick on locals because they're locals?

You're overlooking a couple of crucial words in the post from Liam that kicked this all off - he said "in some ways" it can be easier being black.

Do you think (speaking in general terms, of course, becauase there's always exceptions that proove the rule) there might be no circumstances/experiences that might be more difficult for white kids to deal with?

ETA: for the sake of clarity and to perhaps make it easier - I am talking about some experiences that, generally speaking, black kids aren't going to have....

 

[littlebabyjesus]

EXACTLY. Which is why I said no such thing. Ever. But you already know this, don't you?

No, I don't. I don't have a clue what your point is. Are you talking about people you know personally and how you relate to them, or people who live in the same area that you do not know personally?

 

[LiamO]

I've tried to engage in a civil way, Liam, even though I think you're talking utter bollocks. But hey ho. You seem unable to engage without labelling other posters this or that...

Lol.

Confusing passive-aggression and the persistent erection of strawmen with 'civility' is illustrative. just so you recognise my agression is of the non-passive variety ... fuck off you posh twat.

 

[treelover]

Btw, what on earth has happened to the Indie web site? its all over the place...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Lol.

Confusing passive-aggression and the persistent erection of strawmen with 'civility' is illustrative. just so you recognise my agression is of the non-passive variety ... fuck off you posh twat.

Wow. You accusing others of passive-aggression? Do you have any self-awareness at all?

 

[frogwoman]

I suppose it could mean that a black person could have the support of their friends, family etc (although it wuld probably be very different if they were one of the only black families in the area). Not at all sure about the "local" stuff either tho liam given my own experiences and those of mates with homophobia etc, altho am sure that for some people it's the case.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I suppose it could mean that a black person could have the support of their friends, family etc (although it wuld probably be very different if they were one of the only black families in the area). Not at all sure about the "local" stuff either, altho am sure that for some people it's the case.

Well it wasn't the case for Stephen Lawrence.

 

[frogwoman]

well. no.

 

[LiamO]

Wow. You accusing others of passive-aggression? Do you have any self-awareness at all?

Lol.

Listen, Nurse Ratchett... I am deeply insulted by the likes of you labelling my open and honest aggression 'passive'.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Which is why I made such an effort to clarify exactly what I meant in my post... thereby making it more likely that any disingenuous wiberal lefty coming along afterwards and deliberately choosing to read what they would like me to have said, rather than what I actually wrote... look like a complete cunt.

Oh for the black & white, fundamentalist world you crave...

Has it ever actually existed?
I mean, I'd love to be able to reduce racism to a simple anti-human impulse fueled by irrationality, even to an attribute of a particular class (because for reasons of personal prejudice I'd love to be able to assure myself that all middle-class people are racists), but it's always more complicated than someone deciding whether or not to be a cunt. There are always environmental factors involved that are peculiar to each manifestation.
That's why I don't even agree with the binary opposition of racist/not-racist that the media are happy to tout - racism/non-racism aren't just ideological positions, they're also situated in the environment of the individual attempting to adopt the position, and by environment I don't just mean locale or class, I also mean the social and economic situation of the individual.

 

[hammerntongues]

Well it wasn't the case for Stephen Lawrence.

why do you come to that conclusion , it seems to me from seeing both archive and recent footage that he had many friends and a very close family ?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You're weird and unpleasant, liam. Engaging with you is extremely frustrating. I'm leaving you alone now.

 

[past caring]

You're a fucking clown, tbf.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

why do you come to that conclusion , it seems to me from seeing both archive and recent footage that he had many friends and a very close family ?

Being local didn't save him from the local racists.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're a fucking clown, tbf.

Is that anything like a juggling clown?

I hate clowns!

 

[LiamO]

I suppose it could mean that a black person could have the support of their friends, family etc (although it wuld probably be very different if they were one of the only black families in the area). Not at all sure about the "local" stuff either tho liam given my own experiences and those of mates with homophobia etc, altho am sure that for some people it's the case.

hi froggy.

No the simple point I was making, in response to another poster - which lbj has deliberately chosen to 'confuse' or consider only out of context - was that there was no moral/social dilemna or choices for black people... they were black... they were visibly different and identifiable because of this... they were subjected to racism on a daily basis because of this.

A white person living on such an estate had a dilemna, had choices to make.

here is my post that set lbj off

In some ways (and please don't take this the wrong way) it was/is easier for non-whites than whites. And before people get their knickers in a twist I better expand on that.

1. If you are from that area/estate then your being a Local often 'trumps' your skin colour/religion/sexuality/politics etc. 'He might be a nigger/taig/queer/commie... but he is OUR....'

2. Black people are black. They don't have any choices to make about what 'side' they are on. Nor will their own side label them a 'traitor' the way an actively anti-racist white kid might be labelled by his peers. A special kind of contempt was reserved for traitors/Lundy's IME.

Do you opt for the safety of the tribe? Do you choose to opt out of the tribe mentality but say nothing aloud? Do you remove yourself physically from the area at the earliest opportunity and spend the rest of your days decrying the 'Chavs' who remain? Do you speak out? Do you do it privately or publicly? Do you physically lay your stall out? Do you worry about come-backs on your family for what you say or do?

I would say I have done all of the above at different times in my life.

Having said all that it is my experience that any genuine positive change must ultimately come from within the community/estate. Attempts to impose change by outsiders (whether by the OB, the Council or by those in the semi-State Race Industry) often prove less than helpful.

None of the above in any way diminishes the very real sense of fear and tension that was the daily experience of many non-white people. Nor is it intended to.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Being local didn't save him from the local racists.

Which is probably why the original statement about being local was qualified.

 

[8ball]

No the simple point I was making, in response to another poster - which lbj has deliberately chosen to 'confuse' or consider only out of context - was that there was no moral/social dilemna or choices for black people... they were black... they were visibly different and identifiable because of this... they were subjected to racism on a daily basis because of this.

A white person living on such an estate had a dilemna, had choices to make.

LBJ was questioning your first point more than your second point, I think.

 

[hammerntongues]

Being local didn't save him from the local racists.

My take on that , and it is of course only a personal opinion , is that if he had been known to those cunts and not just an anonymous poor black kid then it is likely it wouldn`t have happened. same area does n`t make you local in this scenario sadly.