Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no, i don't think i represent the general consensus
Stephen Lawrence murder trial begins at Old Bailey
- Thread starter Fedayn
- Start date
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Ok, so I take it that's your personal opinion, though?
I've not been paying attention but I get the impression that it's 'taken as read' by the mainstream media that these two are guilty, even if there are others equally guilty not in the dock.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Ju
....how dare you say anything after that.........but I like it!!!!!!!!!
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Did any of 'the five' or their chums from the NTO like Hyland (convicted for the earlier racist attack on Marlon Conton) or Copley and Goatley (both involved in the Rolan Adams killing, and along with Hyland connected to a car of "laughing white youths" seen prowling Well Hall Road following the Lawrence murder) pay the hundred quid to Duwayne Brooks when he sued them in 2008?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jun/14/lawrence.ukcrime
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/72556.stm
http://www.chronicleworld.org/archive/lawrence/sli-20.htm
And was no further action taken against the ex-cop and the former civilian police worker nicked in 2009 over non-disclosure of evidence during the original Lawrence murder investigation because there was no evidence that they were bent/racist/incompetent, or just not enough evidence to prove it?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8420905.stm
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2873419/No-action-over-Lawrence-pair.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jun/14/lawrence.ukcrime
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/72556.stm
http://www.chronicleworld.org/archive/lawrence/sli-20.htm
And was no further action taken against the ex-cop and the former civilian police worker nicked in 2009 over non-disclosure of evidence during the original Lawrence murder investigation because there was no evidence that they were bent/racist/incompetent, or just not enough evidence to prove it?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8420905.stm
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2873419/No-action-over-Lawrence-pair.html
Re; Eltham
My own (negative)experiences of the area (1989) would echo those of many above.
@TC - afaics nobody is labelling 'the whole population'. What people have stated is that the area stood out in that agressive and casual racism were very much 'in yer face' there. The committed racists/fascists seemed to have a substantial sea of casual racism in which to swim.
Re; the percentage of 'non-white' people in the area as 'evidence' that the area was not dangerously and violently racist... This is a red herring, surely? Bits of Bethnal Green were well on top racially (including many of the pubs) in the 80's/90's but the area had a huge asian population.
@ those who insist that all casual racism (whether in the workplace or the pub) must be challenged at all times... tis well for ye that live and work in places where this is doable. Many people don't. It is easy to challenge racism, especially in an office-type environment, these days. Being one of the very few to challenge it in an Eltham pub (or indeed on most London building sites) in the 80's and 90's was a much more challenging (and potentially dangerous) affair. So to anyone who lived/lives in those areas and does a bit (no matter how much or how little) I salute you - to those getting all evangelical I would respectfully suggest ye cop yerselves on a wee bit and accept that 'pulling' people over casual racism is not always either effective, advisable or even safe.
My own (negative)experiences of the area (1989) would echo those of many above.
@TC - afaics nobody is labelling 'the whole population'. What people have stated is that the area stood out in that agressive and casual racism were very much 'in yer face' there. The committed racists/fascists seemed to have a substantial sea of casual racism in which to swim.
Re; the percentage of 'non-white' people in the area as 'evidence' that the area was not dangerously and violently racist... This is a red herring, surely? Bits of Bethnal Green were well on top racially (including many of the pubs) in the 80's/90's but the area had a huge asian population.
@ those who insist that all casual racism (whether in the workplace or the pub) must be challenged at all times... tis well for ye that live and work in places where this is doable. Many people don't. It is easy to challenge racism, especially in an office-type environment, these days. Being one of the very few to challenge it in an Eltham pub (or indeed on most London building sites) in the 80's and 90's was a much more challenging (and potentially dangerous) affair. So to anyone who lived/lives in those areas and does a bit (no matter how much or how little) I salute you - to those getting all evangelical I would respectfully suggest ye cop yerselves on a wee bit and accept that 'pulling' people over casual racism is not always either effective, advisable or even safe.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
yes, pay attention
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
I'm not sure I'd agree they couldn't receive a fair trial because of the amount of publicity by the way. Yes it was a disgusting crime but the question is whether or not they did it which seems to me to be a wholely different question.
The Daily Mail article is different, though, but is also a difficult one. How do you balance the chance of prejudicing the trial against a protest against the police just letting racist offenders go free.
The Daily Mail article is different, though, but is also a difficult one. How do you balance the chance of prejudicing the trial against a protest against the police just letting racist offenders go free.
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Interesting 1991 article from The Guardian (or possibly The Observer) about Thamesmead in the wake of the Rolan Adams murder, covering NTO/The Firm/Goldfish Gang, as well as police/CPS unwillingness to label it a racist attack, SWP/NBC/BNP political football etc:
http://gangsinlondon.blogspot.com/1991/05/last-exit-to-nowhere-two-black-men-have.html
http://gangsinlondon.blogspot.com/1991/05/last-exit-to-nowhere-two-black-men-have.html
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Don't disagree with much of this Liam but for you to announce, bravely, that 'nobody is labelling the whole population' simply leaves a convenient bolt hole for those that are. Look at not just the Mail's but the Mirror's coverage when they sent reporters down to the area and it is simply full of white working class= racist chavs type bile.Some of that sentiment seeps onto his board at times imo.
can you expand on this a bit.... then we might have a chance to clarify before the shouty liberals arrive?
To clarify my own position... I was referring to posts on here (especially TC reckoning people were doing that on here) rather than in the Press. I would not disagree with your point, nor indeed for the tendency for some urbanites to indulge (pardon the pun...) liberally in anti-working class bile dressed up as right-on politics.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Who would those be? There was a conversation earlier about challenging casual racism in the workplace and the possibility or not of changing the workplace for the better by challenging it. Before you make your respectful suggestions, maybe you should characterise others' positions more accurately.
I can't be arsed looking them up, it's a long thread(I was on a voluntary ban and unable to partake at the time) but I was a little confused/disappointed by the moralising responses of some posters to Lletsa's post about casual racism.
If you are that bothered link to the discussion and I'll name names for you.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
And try to image being non-white and living there, inc. having your kids go to school there. Back then, the area of contention extended right down to estates in Orpington as well.
Fwiw, I have spoken to a coupe of people who are pretty atuned to sentiment in that area and they do say things have 'got better'. How you put then and now in a frame of reference I have no idea....
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Ok. I've not been paying attention, as I said, but it can be hard to tell from meeja reports when these things become big showtrials.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Over two dozen separate I.D.s of the whole gang within 24 hours of the murder. Shows in what esteem they were held, doesn't it?
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
'esteem' being fundamental to fuck all, of course.
In some ways (and please don't take this the wrong way) it was/is easier for non-whites than whites. And before people get their knickers in a twist I better expand on that.
1. If you are from that area/estate then your being a Local often 'trumps' your skin colour/religion/sexuality/politics etc. 'He might be a nigger/taig/queer/commie... but he is OUR....'
2. Black people are black. They don't have any choices to make about what 'side' they are on. Nor will their own side label them a 'traitor' the way an actively anti-racist white kid might be labelled by his peers. A special kind of contempt was reserved for traitors/Lundy's IME.
Do you opt for the safety of the tribe? Do you choose to opt out of the tribe mentality but say nothing aloud? Do you remove yourself physically from the area at the earliest opportunity and spend the rest of your days decrying the 'Chavs' who remain? Do you speak out? Do you do it privately or publicly? Do you physically lay your stall out? Do you worry about come-backs on your family for what you say or do?
I would say I have done all of the above at different times in my life.
Having said all that it is my experience that any genuine positive change must ultimately come from within the community/estate. Attempts to impose change by outsiders (whether by the OB, the Council or by those in the semi-State Race Industry) often prove less than helpful.
None of the above in any way diminishes the very real sense of fear and tension that was the daily experience of many non-white people. Nor is it intended to.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
You seem to be talking about school friends and not how the wider culture/area might treat you. Whatever, it reads a bit Michelle Pfeiffer/Hollywood.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
But as you yourself have said, Liam, there are plenty of non-racist white people in Eltham. You seem to be asking 'What do I do if I fall in with a bunch of racist cunts?' Um, fall out with them, perhaps?
you'll have to expand on that. Not sure what you are saying.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Just wouldn't want to let the shouty liberals who do equate racism asworking class culture to seek cover within you saying that nobody was labelling the whole community when in fact I would rather let them expose themsleves.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
How true do you really think this is?
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
If it's not clear enough, Stephen Lawrence came from the Eltham area, and so did his murderers i.e. the same circs that you believe makes it "easier for non-whites".
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Indeed. I have to say the idea that it's in any way easier for black people growing up in an area full of white racists than white people who are not racist is rather strange.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
This chimes in with the narrative within the Routes to Racism research which concluded that racism was a product of a youth culture in the area ( rather than parenting etc) in which racism ( rather than anti racsism) was seen to be a radical response against the existing order . There was also a widespread perception that things were bent in a way in which non whites benefited.
in a wider context these were exactly the conditions that the BNP did so well in their 'Rights for Whites' campaign and later their narrative that whites should be treated as a racial identity on par with other racial identities.
I'm not talking about Eltham specifically. Have a read of the article linked above (which I have only just done ... after I posted).
In the city I grew up in there were 2 racist murders within a few weeks of each other the year I left school. Many of those convicted were indeed schoolmates or kids I grew up with. Me and my mate made a concious decision to go on the anti-racist protest march that so many of our 'mates' were trying to attack. There were social repercussions for many years. I sometimes reflect that, whilst that stance may have been right from a political/moral point of view for us personally, it was not the most effective in terms of any influence we may have had amongst our peers because it made us 'outsiders' (whose views could be instantly dismissed simply because of that).
I now live in the north of Ireland. I have lost count of how many people (community workers/ Artists/ even ex-prisoners) from Loyalist areas who have been driven out by 'their own' for daring to question the prevailing views and attitudes. Loyalist communities/estates (where if you substitute religious labels for race, you have the same as kind of reactionary attitudes and intimidation as many white estates in england in the 80's) are often devoid of any social dissent at all.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
If only it were that easy.
Realistically, "getting out" can be the hardest thing of all, especially if you've no means to leave the area, so even if you have the courage of your convictions, you (and/or your family) may be unable to escape the consequences of them.
That is not what I am saying at all.
Besides it reduces everything to the personal level. Sometimes if you want to influence a group of people you must find a way to do so from within the group - unless of course you prefer to indulge yourself in finger-wagging and tutting for the rest of your natural.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I've tried to engage in a civil way, Liam, even though I think you're talking utter bollocks. But hey ho. You seem unable to engage without labelling other posters this or that...
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