Should the fox hunting ban be lifted?

[kabbes]

I’ve got to say that as much as I couldn’t give a monkeys what happens to somebody that goes on hunts and punches horses, I am concerned at the increasing assumption that what you do in your spare time is automatically within the remit of your employer. Yes, this woman happened to be a teacher but past experience of internet shaming shows that people don’t really care what the shamee actually does, they just want them fired. So I can’t help but feel that in this instance, it’s really just a happy coincidence for the vengeful crowd that their righteous anger can be justified by recourse to child protection arguments. Had she been a clerk working for British Airways, I think there still would have been petitions to remove her.

 

[Badgers]

Fuck her and the ship she sails in.

 

[Funky_monks]

She attacked a defenceless animal because it didn't do as she wanted. If my daughter's were at her school there is no way I would want her teaching them.
She has/had safeguarding responsibilities so knows that illegal, violent behaviour is not acceptable for those working with children yet she still chose to do what she did.
You could make that argument (about people reflecting and changing their behaviour) against virtually every sacking...bullying, racism, theft etc so in my opinion it is a red herring in this instance.

Genuinely, I find horses and the people who ride them at best mildly irritating, so I tend to avoid any discussion thereof, but is the way she treated that horse illegal?

I know that farmed animals all have governmental welfare codes of practice which are legally binding, so you can be prosecuted for contravening them - does any such thing exist for horses?

 

[Funky_monks]

I also think the main issue we do know about in terms of her working with children is that by either demonstration or deliberate instruction she is liable to teach children that this is the way to treat animals. In fact, she has already done the former.

Do primary schools do anything with animals at all? How would this even come up?

 

[Calamity1971]

Do primary schools do anything with animals at all? How would this even come up?

You never get to take the school guinea pig etc home to teach you how to care for animals.? Visited a petting zoo?
Ridiculous question that I've read about 4 times and it still doesn't make bleeding sense?

 

[Calamity1971]

does any such thing exist for horses?

No, that's why the RSPCA definitely didn't attach that incident number to her door.

 

[Funky_monks]

You never get to take the school guinea pig etc home to teach you how to care for animals.? Visited a petting zoo?
Ridiculous question that I've read about 4 times and it still doesn't make bleeding sense?

Ive been in a few primary schools and none have had any pets - is this usual? Does that still exist?

 

[Raheem]

Ive been in a few primary schools and none have had any pets - is this usual? Does that still exist?

My son's primary school has chickens.

 

[Funky_monks]

No, that's why the RSPCA definitely didn't attach that incident number to her door.

The RSPCA are a charity, they don't have any legal remit really - what law is she supposed to have broken.

Genuinely don't know the law around this, were it a farmed animal the law is quite proscriptive and there would be several grounds for prosecution.

 

[Funky_monks]

My son's primary school has chickens.

Ah, that's nice, I thought that sort of thing was a bit of a blip. Back when my daughter was in primary school they hatched some, but then parents took them to keep because the school couldn't look after them.

 

[Calamity1971]

Ive been in a few primary schools and none have had any pets - is this usual? Does that still exist?

Some have veg plots and chickens. Even if they didn't, the fact that their teacher has gone viral twatting an innocent animal does have bearing on what happens.

 

[Calamity1971]

The RSPCA are a charity, they don't have any legal remit really - what law is she supposed to have broken.

Genuinely don't know the law around this, were it a farmed animal the law is quite proscriptive and there would be several grounds for prosecution.

So why do people get prosecuted in court when the RSPCA are involved?

 

[Funky_monks]

So why do people get prosecuted in court when the RSPCA are involved?

Presumably because they are able to provide evidence that they have broken the law. Which returns me to my question - has she broken any? If so, which?

It has always seemed to me that there is extensive legislation around the welfare of farm animals (which I have no problem with), but it is lacking in the "pet" sector - for example, a lot of dog breeding produces inbred animals with shit health outcomes and miserable, pain filled lives and yet this does not break any laws.........

 

[Calamity1971]

Presumably because they are able to provide evidence that they have broken the law. Which returns me to my question - has she broken any? If so, which?

It has always seemed to me that there is extensive legislation around the welfare of farm animals (which I have no problem with), but it is lacking in the "pet" sector - for example, a lot of dog breeding produces inbred animals with shit health outcomes and miserable, pain filled lives and yet this does not break any laws.........

I have no idea on the laws surrounding domesticated animals. Puppy farms are another one you could've included.
Hopefully someone could educate us both.
I just hope the vicious fucker does get prosecuted and is banned from keeping any animal.

 

[kabbes]

Genuinely, I find horses and the people who ride them at best mildly irritating, so I tend to avoid any discussion thereof, but is the way she treated that horse illegal?

I know that farmed animals all have governmental welfare codes of practice which are legally binding, so you can be prosecuted for contravening them - does any such thing exist for horses?

Animal Welfare Act 2006

An Act to make provision about animal welfare; and for connected purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

Protected animal”
An animal is a “protected animal” for the purposes of this Act if—

(a)it is of a kind which is commonly domesticated in the British Islands,

(b)it is under the control of man whether on a permanent or temporary basis, or

(c)it is not living in a wild state.

Unnecessary suffering
(1)A person commits an offence if—

(a)an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer,

(b)he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so,

(c)the animal is a protected animal, and

(d)the suffering is unnecessary.

(2)A person commits an offence if—

(a)he is responsible for an animal,

(b)an act, or failure to act, of another person causes the animal to suffer,

(c)he permitted that to happen or failed to take such steps (whether by way of supervising the other person or otherwise) as were reasonable in all the circumstances to prevent that happening, and

(d)the suffering is unnecessary.

(3)The considerations to which it is relevant to have regard when determining for the purposes of this section whether suffering is unnecessary include—

(a)whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced;

(b)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was in compliance with any relevant enactment or any relevant provisions of a licence or code of practice issued under an enactment;

(c)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was for a legitimate purpose, such as—

(i)the purpose of benefiting the animal, or

(ii)the purpose of protecting a person, property or another animal;

(d)whether the suffering was proportionate to the purpose of the conduct concerned;

(e)whether the conduct concerned was in all the circumstances that of a reasonably competent and humane person.

(It then describes some exemptions, which don’t apply in this case)

So yes, I would say she was breaking the law.

I don’t know what your “irritation” is with horses, by the way, but my experience of them is that they are gentle creatures who, having been bred for over 5000 years to work with people, really want to please. They are also nervy and flighty owing to their nature as prey animals, and so appreciate gentleness and calm. So punching and kicking them comprise a particular cruelty in their sake.

 

[Funky_monks]

I don’t know what your “irritation” is with horses, by the way...

"Dangerous both ends, uncomfortable in the middle"

The irritation is more with the latter though (people who ride them).

 

[kabbes]

I thought it was “aresehole at both ends, cunt in the middle “?

 

[Funky_monks]

I thought it was “aresehole at both ends, cunt in the middle “?

I mean, that'll do...

 

[comrade spurski]

Genuinely, I find horses and the people who ride them at best mildly irritating, so I tend to avoid any discussion thereof, but is the way she treated that horse illegal?

I know that farmed animals all have governmental welfare codes of practice which are legally binding, so you can be prosecuted for contravening them - does any such thing exist for horses?

Can't pretend to know which exact law it is but think it could be argued that it was cruel treatment to an animal. I could well be wrong but do not think you are legally allowed to kick and punch a dog or cat so can't see how you can a horse.
But can't claim to know for a fact tbf.

 

[kabbes]

Can't pretend to know which exact law it is but think it could be argued that it was cruel treatment to an animal. I could well be wrong but do not think you are legally allowed to kick and punch a dog or cat so can't see how you can a horse.
But can't claim to know for a fact tbf.

Four posts above your one

 

[Serene]

Foxes kill Rats, there should be more of them, a lot, lot more.

 

[StoneRoad]

After the vote at the National Trust AGM ...

Trail hunting banned on Natural Resources Wales land

NRW has "lost confidence" in the Masters of Foxhounds Association after its director was convicted.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Chilli.s]

I'm against fox hunting as it used to be and have been since I was a young quite enthusiastic and competitive rider. The cruelty towards the fox was always excused by the participants as to actually ride to a hunt is very exciting.

The ban has provided hunts with opportunity to change from live hunting to drag hunts. They have totally failed to embrace this and actually used it (drag hunts) to disguise the continuation of hunting.

A drag hunt could provide all the excitement, spectacle and social side that they want. In fact it could be bigger better and safer. There's no excuse in my view, it's a reluctance to modernise, possibly cultural. Very glad that the National Trust seem to see this as well, hunts had the chance and so far they blew it.

 

[SpookyFrank]

So I can’t help but feel that in this instance, it’s really just a happy coincidence for the vengeful crowd that their righteous anger can be justified by recourse to child protection arguments. Had she been a clerk working for British Airways, I think there still would have been petitions to remove her.

It's not merely convenient to point out that someone who uses this kind of violence cannot be left in charge of young children. It's a part of the professional standards she agreed to uphold. Outside pressure isn't a factor at all. She brought her profession into disrepute, and duly lost her job as a result.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

After the vote at the National Trust AGM ...

Trail hunting banned on Natural Resources Wales land

NRW has "lost confidence" in the Masters of Foxhounds Association after its director was convicted.

www.bbc.co.uk

That and the National Trust doing so are good things. Doubt the Duchy of Cornwall or Crown Estate will follow soon, given it is their mates that like killing for pleasure. What stands out here though is how thick these toffs are; why did he need to explain that drag hunting is a smokescreen for actual hunting? Surely that was just a given? But then Tim Nice But Dim wasn’t created in a vacuum I guess…

 

[kabbes]

It's not merely convenient to point out that someone who uses this kind of violence cannot be left in charge of young children. It's a part of the professional standards she agreed to uphold. Outside pressure isn't a factor at all. She brought her profession into disrepute, and duly lost her job as a result.

You’ve missed out the context of the rest of the post. The point is that people go straight to the desire to have somebody fired these days. Yes, this woman happened to be a teacher but claiming that it’s just about that is disingenuous.

 

[Teaboy]

The RSPCA are a charity, they don't have any legal remit really - what law is she supposed to have broken.

Genuinely don't know the law around this, were it a farmed animal the law is quite proscriptive and there would be several grounds for prosecution.

So why do people get prosecuted in court when the RSPCA are involved?

The RSCPCA carry out a lot of private prosecutions each year and I mean a lot. Its actually a pretty controversial thing and there has been a lot of press about it. The RSPCA argue that they have to be an advocate for the animal as that is their purpose and if they aren't then who will be?

The flip side is that others have wondered whether using charitable donations in this way is ethical and whether some of their targets for prosecution actually need help rather than being dragged to court.

The cases are usually about getting banning orders in place for owners who mistreat their animals. Though they usually come with a fine and / or punishment.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I think a good old public flogging in social media was perhaps more then required. But may give her cause for contemplation.
Starvation is maybe a step too far. But then I am human.

People as posh as her never have to starve. I reckon within 6 months she'll be a regular on question time whining about cancel culture with Laurence Fox.

 

[8ball]

People as posh as her never have to starve. I reckon within 6 months she'll be a regular on question time whining about cancel culture with Laurence Fox.

That would be fun. Especially if she tries to hunt him on horseback.

 

[Serge Forward]