Should men describe themselves as feminists, if they are supportive of feminism?

[weepiper]

Many of the struggles for working class men are the same as for working class women. In terms of jobs, housing, debt, balanced work-family life, education, etc. Though many of the highest paid jobs are taken by men, many more jobs are "available" to women then men in general. "Traditional male jobs" are now a valid career path for women but many "traditional female jobs" are not generally "available" to men. Childcare nurseries is one example. Many more men than women for one reason or another end up in prison which will of course hinder in employment prospects...as will family breakdowns, which men suffer more from as they will most likely end up living in bedsits, shelters or homeless. We all need to move away from this men vs women women vs men agenda an strife for a better, fairer, more equal society whilst accepting our unique differences.

What? What the fuck? Many more jobs are available to women than men? Are you fucking serious? It doesn't matter how 'available' the job is to women if we're still the ones doing all the unpaid looking after children and elderly relatives

 

[killer b]

I think Vincent just wanted to say but what about the men?

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Interesting article about Andrea Dworkins here: http://gu.com/p/473g4/sbl

She sounds

Have you read some of the stuff she's come out with, quoted extensively btl? Some of it's utterly bonkers and beyond belief - and that's without touching on feminist issues.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

Many of the struggles for working class men are the same as for working class women. In terms of jobs, housing, debt, balanced work-family life, education, etc. Though many of the highest paid jobs are taken by men, many more jobs are "available" to women then men in general. "Traditional male jobs" are now a valid career path for women but many "traditional female jobs" are not generally "available" to men. Childcare nurseries is one example. Many more men than women for one reason or another end up in prison which will of course hinder in employment prospects...as will family breakdowns, which men suffer more from as they will most likely end up living in bedsits, shelters or homeless. We all need to move away from this men vs women women vs men agenda an strife for a better, fairer, more equal society whilst accepting our unique differences.

Men have a much easier time of it then women as a whole. Men are the bosses, men earn more money, men aren't expected to give up their jobs to raise kids, men don't do as much caring work in general, men walk away from their kids more leaving the woman raising them, men are in political power (and yes that includes unions), men use physical violence to get their way. I don't care for all this class struggle before women's rights bullshit. Working class men shit all over working class women all the time and quite honestly I find more in common with other mothers and women generally than men. Whatever class.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

Have you read some of the stuff she's come out with, quoted extensively btl? Some of it's utterly bonkers and beyond belief - and that's without touching on feminist issues.

I've not read her books. I want to read Woman Hating.

 

[weepiper]

Dworkin has come out with some pretty batshit stuff but that doesn't mean she's wrong on all of it.

 

[killer b]

even the batshit stuff is thought provoking, especially when read in context rather than quoted partially and out of context by her enemies 30 years later...

 

[Nancy_Winks]

A feminist is a posh woman shouting loudly

Says a man.

 

[killer b]

Have you read some of the stuff she's come out with, quoted extensively btl? Some of it's utterly bonkers and beyond belief - and that's without touching on feminist issues.

Assuming you meant the bit about defective x & y chromosomes (there isn't anything else 'quoted extensively btl' that I can see), that wasn't Dworkin - that was Valerie Solanas (of Andy Warhol attempted assassination fame). Nothing to do with Dworkin.

 

[Vincent]

What? What the fuck? Many more jobs are available to women than men? Are you fucking serious? It doesn't matter how 'available' the job is to women if we're still the ones doing all the unpaid looking after children and elderly relatives

Having looked after child and elderly relative I can honestly say that women do not do all the unpaid caring. And I don't believe I am the only man to have done so...

 

[killer b]

textbook.

 

[weepiper]

Oh how convenient.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Tbh I see quite a lot of people saying "I'm a feminist" in the same way as "I'm not racist", i.e. with a guaranteed "but" coming up. I'm more interested in what their actual opinions are than what they claim to be.

I must say I haven't noticed this at all myself. Far more commonly do I hear (from both men and women) something along the lines of 'I believe in equality but I'm not a feminist' or 'I'm all for gender equality but feminism has gone too far' etc. The other day a friend on Facebook included both 'Misogynists' and 'Feminists' in a list of 'people that disgust me'. What this usually means is that they are in favour of formal equality for men and women but don't agree with challenging structural barriers to gender equality or contesting cultural and social norms about the roles of the sexes...

Part of this is the outcome of the backlash against feminism but I also think men in particular often don't like to call themselves feminists because they think it makes them feminine, i.e 'soft' and 'weak' rather than 'hard' and 'in control'. In other words, I think a great many men don't like to use the term 'feminism' precisely because of the gender norms that feminism seeks to combat. I agree with everybody who says what you choose to call yourself isn't terribly important in the grand scheme of things and its actions that matter. But I also think that men calling themselves feminists is a good thing because it helps to destabilize the gender norms that feminism contests...

 

[seventh bullet]

A feminist is a posh woman shouting loudly

Says a man.

There was a lot more to what butchersapron was getting at than just that.

 

[weepiper]

There was a lot more to what butchersapron was getting at than just that.

There was. But that's how it came across.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

There was a lot more to what butchersapron was getting at than just that.

And I agree with him that it often feels like that. It does bloody feel like that and I hate women like Caitlin Moran, what a stupid bitch I hate her. But it sticks in your throat having working class men dithering on about class struggle being more important. Who're you to say ffs?!

 

[seventh bullet]

And I agree with him that it often feels like that. It does bloody feel like that and I hate women like Caitlin Moran, what a stupid bitch I hate her. But it sticks in your throat having working class men dithering on about class struggle being more important. Who're you to say ffs?!

My mother says (working class, former communist).

 

[Poot]

I must say I haven't noticed this at all myself. Far more commonly do I hear (from both men and women) something along the lines of 'I believe in equality but I'm not a feminist' or 'I'm all for gender equality but feminism has gone too far' etc. The other day a friend on Facebook included both 'Misogynists' and 'Feminists' in a list of 'people that disgust me'. What this usually means is that they are in favour of formal equality for men and women but don't agree with challenging structural barriers to gender equality or contesting cultural and social norms about the roles of the sexes

This sort of reminded me of when Bob Crow died, and the BBC described how he had been successful in gaining rights for employees but he was a controversial figure because of the inconvenience he had caused millions by calling for strikes. It was spoken as though the 2 things were completely unrelated. Same with feminism - you have to speak up and inconvenience people sometimes or nothing changes.

 

[seventh bullet]

And it isn't the class struggle being more important. It's what that struggle includes, what it aims for. All women, all people.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

This sort of reminded me of when Bob Crow died, and the BBC described how he had been successful in gaining rights for employees but he was a controversial figure because of the inconvenience he had caused millions by calling for strikes. It was spoken as though the 2 things were completely unrelated. Same with feminism - you have to speak up and inconvenience people sometimes or nothing changes.

Yes, exactly. Spot on.

 

[weepiper]

And it isn't the class struggle being more important. It's what that struggle includes, what it aims for. All women, all people.

It should be, shouldn't it. It doesn't feel like it does from the sharp end a lot of the time though.

 

[equationgirl]

Having looked after child and elderly relative I can honestly say that women do not do all the unpaid caring. And I don't believe I am the only man to have done so...

Which women's jobs are not open to men?

 

[8ball]

Which women's jobs are not open to men?

Being the Queen.

Not open to most women either tbf...

 

[killer b]

that isn't open to women either tbf

 

[8ball]

that isn't open to women either tbf

<post overlapped edit>

It's not an easy question.

I was going to go for 'actress', but it's a flawed answer, really.

 

[xenon]

If I heard a bloke say something along the lines of oh hi. I'm a femmenist, I'd think they were a sex pest or at least a massive wanker.
Sorry, but there it is. Gut reaction. Admitttidly to an instance I made up.

OTOH, if a bloke keeps on about all women like XYZ, conform to whatever, I tend to think they're an ignorant sexit oaf.

 

[xenon]

Having looked after child and elderly relative I can honestly say that women do not do all the unpaid caring. And I don't believe I am the only man to have done so...

Er, I don't think she said all caring is done by women.

Why do people lose or seem so willing to throw away, their reading comprehension skills on these threads.

 

[Vintage Paw]

"Traditional male jobs" are now a valid career path for women but many "traditional female jobs" are not generally "available" to men.

If this were true, do some joined-up thinking. Why might that be the case? Hmm? Is it because of the evil womens getting everything their own way? Or is it because patriarchy dictates a set of gender norms that people must conform to? Is it that the idea of the 'feminine' is seen as pretty undesirable, and so it's a positive thing if a woman wants to be 'more like a man' but a terrible thing if a man wants to be 'more like a woman'? Is it because people are told to 'man up' because acting more like a man is a sign of success and the opposite is being like a woman? Is it because boys are told to stop 'acting like a girl'? Is it because of "god, you throw like a girl," or "ugh, that's gay" (because that's related too -- interesting aside, I know someone who refused to hug his mum because he said it was "a bit gay".).

Think about that.

 

[Vintage Paw]

On the class thing: class consciousness is an essential component to all fights like this, be it around sexism, racism, transphobia, disability discrimination, whatever. However, all too often - as has been covered on this thread already - it's used as a way to shut up women, anyone who isn't white (god forbid that person also be a woman), etc. Come the revolution it'll all be peachy. Maybe it will. But we haven't had a revolution yet, and there are a lot of fucking shocking things that are very specific to women, to people of colour, to gay people... ways in which being working class AND a woman, or working class AND disabled, or working class AND black, causes additional obstacles, additional piles of shit on top of the regular shit. And as I said before, frankly I'm not going to sit back and laugh if some rich woman gets raped, or gets death threats, or gets stalked, or even 'just' gets perpetually catcalled whenever she goes out. lol, she's a rich bitch, why should I care? WHY SHOULD I CARE? Because those are the same things that happen to women of all types, because rape doesn't discriminate, domestic violence doesn't discriminate... certain attitudes cross class boundaries, and the way we think about gender is one of them. So you fight it on all fronts, ALONGSIDE class struggle. You don't wait for the glorious day when men everywhere are going to suddenly concede power, and in the meantime just shake your head and keep quiet about the murders and the assaults and the rapes and the systematic pummelling of self-esteem and the harm done in terms of body image and the way a lot of women are constantly told their voice isn't as important as the men's. And if some middle class or upper class women fight for their own brand of feminism that ignores class and upholds their own privilege, I'm not going to take a massive shit on feminism and women everywhere and say "well, the posh ladies spoilt it for you, let's go home lasses, and cook him his tea" - I'm going to continue fighting for it the right way (whatever I consider to be the right way, no one holds a monopoly on that), and fuck every single guy who uses the 'but but what about class' argument as a way to stop having to think about the icky F word.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

On the class thing: class consciousness is an essential component to all fights like this, be it around sexism, racism, transphobia, disability discrimination, whatever. However, all too often - as has been covered on this thread already - it's used as a way to shut up women, anyone who isn't white (god forbid that person also be a woman), etc. Come the revolution it'll all be peachy. Maybe it will. But we haven't had a revolution yet, and there are a lot of fucking shocking things that are very specific to women, to people of colour, to gay people... ways in which being working class AND a woman, or working class AND disabled, or working class AND black, causes additional obstacles, additional piles of shit on top of the regular shit. And as I said before, frankly I'm not going to sit back and laugh if some rich woman gets raped, or gets death threats, or gets stalked, or even 'just' gets perpetually catcalled whenever she goes out. lol, she's a rich bitch, why should I care? WHY SHOULD I CARE? Because those are the same things that happen to women of all types, because rape doesn't discriminate, domestic violence doesn't discriminate... certain attitudes cross class boundaries, and the way we think about gender is one of them. So you fight it on all fronts, ALONGSIDE class struggle. You don't wait for the glorious day when men everywhere are going to suddenly concede power, and in the meantime just shake your head and keep quiet about the murders and the assaults and the rapes and the systematic pummelling of self-esteem and the harm done in terms of body image and the way a lot of women are constantly told their voice isn't as important as the men's. And if some middle class or upper class women fight for their own brand of feminism that ignores class and upholds their own privilege, I'm not going to take a massive shit on feminism and women everywhere and say "well, the posh ladies spoilt it for you, let's go home lasses, and cook him his tea" - I'm going to continue fighting for it the right way (whatever I consider to be the right way, no one holds a monopoly on that), and fuck every single guy who uses the 'but but what about class' argument as a way to stop having to think about the icky F word.

Nine times out of ten the what about class statement is just used to demonstrate that privilege isn't uniform according to identity, and rightly so. It's structural, it's not fucking personal. And why shout about rape and murder at him, yeah lets bring that up everytime someone doesn't like a particular aspect of feminism, fuck the murder victims and rape victims that those severe words should be reserved for talking about. AAAAAAAAH.