Should men describe themselves as feminists, if they are supportive of feminism?

[Vintage Paw]

I can spit out unfounded stats too. Nine times out of ten when I see it, it's by men who want to shut women the fuck down.

How's that?

 

[Vintage Paw]

I'll go into more detail. As has been amply covered on this thread, yes, us women understand class is important. But guess what, yes, sexism is personal when you're subjected to it in myriad ways every single day. Sexism is systemic and structural. Sexism is personal.

We live in a society where things have moved on since the 70s. As much as we might cry and wail about it, identity culture is ingrained. Yes, point out the need for class consciousness, yes encourage political education, yes try to divorce the idea of activism from the creation and adoption of identities - but don't stick your head in the sand and think you're fighting the same fight from 40 years ago. People adopt identities wholesale, and you have to take that into account and incorporate it into the way you work towards class consciousness, and the way you think about feminism, racism, all of it. It's a multifaceted approach. And when I'm talking about class being mentioned in a certain way, I'm not talking about people who try to encourage others to consider class as part of their praxis - I'm talking specifically about the people on the left who don't like talking about feminism and try to shut women down because class is all that matters now go back to the kitchen and make the good revolutionary men their tea, love. #notalllefties

We've covered a lot of this already.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Ha, i obvs didn't present that as a genuine stat. Yeah, the vast majority of times i see the whit about class statement being brought up it's either- a) by intersectionalists misrepresenting folk who think class based analysis is important or b)what i said before. I've never been shut down by that class statement, but i am disagreed with by men alllll the time(shut down, not so much, i'm never done shouting). I'm not saying it doesn't happen, like. And since Vincent is on a net forum, he cannae shut anyone dowe. I wish people would STFU with the SHUT ME DOWN carry on, it's getting a bit wearing like.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I'll go into more detail. As has been amply covered on this thread, yes, us women understand class is important. But guess what, yes, sexism is personal when you're subjected to it in myriad ways every single day. Sexism is systemic. Sexism is personal.

We live in a society where things have moved on since the 70s. As much as we might cry and wail about it, identity culture is ingrained. Yes, point out the need for class consciousness, yes encourage political education, yes try to divorce the idea of activism from the creation and adoption of identities - but don't stick your head in the sand and think you're fighting the same fight from 40 years ago. People adopt identities wholesale, and you have to take that into account and incorporate it into the way you work towards class consciousness, and the way you think about feminism, racism, all of it. It's a multifaceted approach. And when I'm talking about class being mentioned in a certain way, I'm not talking about people who try to encourage others to consider class as part of their praxis - I'm talking specifically about the people on the left who don't like talking about feminism and try to shut women down because class is all that matters now go back to the kitchen and make the good revolutionary men their tea, love.

We've covered a lot of this already.

Yay, it's nice to be confirmed in actual text that my problems with certain strains o feminism means i'm not actually a woman.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Ha, i obvs didn't present that as a genuine stat. Yeah, the vast majority of times i see the whit about class statement being brought up it's either- a) by intersectionalists misrepresenting folk who think class based analysis is important or b)what i said before. I've never been shut down by that class statement, but i am disagreed with by men alllll the time(shut down, not so much, i'm never done shouting). I'm not saying it doesn't happen, like. And since Vincent is on a net forum, he cannae shut anyone dowe. I wish people would STFU with the SHUT ME DOWN carry on, it's getting a bit wearing like.

So you want to 'shut people down' who go on about being shut down? j/k

I get what you're saying. Just because you haven't experienced something doesn't mean others haven't. There's one poster on here in particular I can think of with a particularly nasty axe to grind when it comes to feminism and the left, but it's a common theme, and having spent some time around lefty people of certain affiliations it's sadly all too common offline too. More so, in fact.

Yay, it's nice to be confirmed in actual text that my problems with certain strains o feminism means i'm not actually a woman.

I have no idea where you would get that from. The only piece of what I wrote that I can think you're referring to is "us women understand class is important" - but frankly I'm not sure how that suggests you're 'not a woman.'

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

You said us women meaning not me, admit it woman. You gone been burned! *toasts self with two glasses of vodka and water*

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Hey sorry i didn't see the toppermost part of your comment. I hear that statement a lot, and i used to be a member of the SSP, but, I am predominantly heeland and now orkney, so that's probs why my experience differs from yours. I do think vincent meant well tho, and i do have to high five carers of their own family, i've been a paid carer for 11 years xx

 

[Nancy_Winks]

On the class thing: class consciousness is an essential component to all fights like this, be it around sexism, racism, transphobia, disability discrimination, whatever. However, all too often - as has been covered on this thread already - it's used as a way to shut up women, anyone who isn't white (god forbid that person also be a woman), etc. Come the revolution it'll all be peachy. Maybe it will. But we haven't had a revolution yet, and there are a lot of fucking shocking things that are very specific to women, to people of colour, to gay people... ways in which being working class AND a woman, or working class AND disabled, or working class AND black, causes additional obstacles, additional piles of shit on top of the regular shit. And as I said before, frankly I'm not going to sit back and laugh if some rich woman gets raped, or gets death threats, or gets stalked, or even 'just' gets perpetually catcalled whenever she goes out. lol, she's a rich bitch, why should I care? WHY SHOULD I CARE? Because those are the same things that happen to women of all types, because rape doesn't discriminate, domestic violence doesn't discriminate... certain attitudes cross class boundaries, and the way we think about gender is one of them. So you fight it on all fronts, ALONGSIDE class struggle. You don't wait for the glorious day when men everywhere are going to suddenly concede power, and in the meantime just shake your head and keep quiet about the murders and the assaults and the rapes and the systematic pummelling of self-esteem and the harm done in terms of body image and the way a lot of women are constantly told their voice isn't as important as the men's. And if some middle class or upper class women fight for their own brand of feminism that ignores class and upholds their own privilege, I'm not going to take a massive shit on feminism and women everywhere and say "well, the posh ladies spoilt it for you, let's go home lasses, and cook him his tea" - I'm going to continue fighting for it the right way (whatever I consider to be the right way, no one holds a monopoly on that), and fuck every single guy who uses the 'but but what about class' argument as a way to stop having to think about the icky F word.

THIS!!!

And.. I have no idea why or on what basis we women should think that 'come the revolution' (whatever that actually means) it'll be any bloody different between men and women! As if men are suddenly gonna stop hitting women, stop being the ones in charge etc. Why the fuck should they? There's as much sexism on the left as anywhere else isn't there? I fail to see that revolution or communism or socialism or anything else will make any difference for how women are treated compared to men. It's just men telling us not to worry again.

 

[The Boy]

Many of the struggles for working class men are the same as for working class women. In terms of jobs, housing, debt, balanced work-family life, education, etc. Though many of the highest paid jobs are taken by men, many more jobs are "available" to women then men in general. "Traditional male jobs" are now a valid career path for women but many "traditional female jobs" are not generally "available" to men. Childcare nurseries is one example. Many more men than women for one reason or another end up in prison which will of course hinder in employment prospects...as will family breakdowns, which men suffer more from as they will most likely end up living in bedsits, shelters or homeless. We all need to move away from this men vs women women vs men agenda an strife for a better, fairer, more equal society whilst accepting our unique differences.

"But what about the menz?"[\i]

 

[seventh bullet]

On the class thing: class consciousness is an essential component to all fights like this, be it around sexism, racism, transphobia, disability discrimination, whatever. However, all too often - as has been covered on this thread already - it's used as a way to shut up women, anyone who isn't white (god forbid that person also be a woman), etc. Come the revolution it'll all be peachy. Maybe it will. But we haven't had a revolution yet, and there are a lot of fucking shocking things that are very specific to women, to people of colour, to gay people... ways in which being working class AND a woman, or working class AND disabled, or working class AND black, causes additional obstacles, additional piles of shit on top of the regular shit. And as I said before, frankly I'm not going to sit back and laugh if some rich woman gets raped, or gets death threats, or gets stalked, or even 'just' gets perpetually catcalled whenever she goes out. lol, she's a rich bitch, why should I care? WHY SHOULD I CARE? Because those are the same things that happen to women of all types, because rape doesn't discriminate, domestic violence doesn't discriminate... certain attitudes cross class boundaries, and the way we think about gender is one of them. So you fight it on all fronts, ALONGSIDE class struggle. You don't wait for the glorious day when men everywhere are going to suddenly concede power, and in the meantime just shake your head and keep quiet about the murders and the assaults and the rapes and the systematic pummelling of self-esteem and the harm done in terms of body image and the way a lot of women are constantly told their voice isn't as important as the men's. And if some middle class or upper class women fight for their own brand of feminism that ignores class and upholds their own privilege, I'm not going to take a massive shit on feminism and women everywhere and say "well, the posh ladies spoilt it for you, let's go home lasses, and cook him his tea" - I'm going to continue fighting for it the right way (whatever I consider to be the right way, no one holds a monopoly on that), and fuck every single guy who uses the 'but but what about class' argument as a way to stop having to think about the icky F word.

Sure, I'm male, I'm (ugh) white and working class. I can't know what it is like for you, but I do know what it is like to be a child in a matrifocal, benefit-dependent single-parent household (the result of leaving a situation of regular male domestic violence and sexual abuse) with all the pressures, problems, obstacles and humiliations of poverty that so often is the result for working class families breaking away from something like that. The deteriorating physical and mental health, the doors slammed in your face, the ones that were never open for you in the first place. The judgment and prejudice, encouraged by people of different class backgrounds with massive social power, economic power, but no understanding of what life is like at the bottom of the pile making decisions that affect you. The corrosive 'it's an uphill climb to the bottom' outlook that can form in people.

It's partly why I came to understand class as very important and later how other facets of our social lives cross through it. Experience, really awful experience at times, not going through some radical phase at university (there are important reasons why people from my background, male and female, rarely go to such a place). Maybe I was fortunate in a way to have a mother who was politically a self-described Communist, but reading books and that other side of 'political education' on my own terms came much later. 'Feminism' as I understand it, as a ball-scratching brute of a prole, is the class struggle. It's inseparable if it is to have any chance of building a new society.

I 'make the tea' for my educated non-white working class partner quite often, but I might poison her with my creations one of these days. It can get complicated can't it? This class business. When people can appear to speak down to or for those with little or no social/cultural capital, without the formal education, without the confidence, without the means, with different class experiences. To see the importance of things differently, of what matters, on what needs to be focused on the most, and in the process to reproduce, without realising it, some of the very things (the social divisions) people are sincerely seeking to change. Maybe there are some posh people shouting, and some of those shouts are about the right things. But maybe, just maybe, those shouts are drowning out other voices. I hate to say this shit, but a lot of privilege that is ignored or not even seen as a problem, specifically class privilege, needs to be 'checked.' It's not about seeking out enemies, but communication, dialogue, understanding. More widely, with seeing how class affects people differently, people at the bottom might not get trampled over by people supposedly on their side, to never even have their existence as political actors acknowledged, taken seriously, to know that what they think, what they have to say, actually matters.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

Sure, I'm male, I'm (ugh) white and working class. I can't know what it is like for you, but I do know what it is like to be a child in a matrifocal, benefit-dependent single-parent household (the result of leaving a situation of regular male domestic violence and sexual abuse) with all the pressures, problems, obstacles and humiliations of poverty that so often is the result for working class families breaking away from something like that. The deteriorating physical and mental health, the doors slammed in your face, the ones that were never open for you in the first place. The judgment and prejudice, encouraged by people of different class backgrounds with massive social power, economic power, but no understanding of what life is like at the bottom of the pile making decisions that affect you. The corrosive 'it's an uphill climb to the bottom' outlook that can form in people.

It's partly why I came to understand class as very important and later how other facets of our social lives cross through it. Experience, really awful experience at times, not going through some radical phase at university (there are important reasons why people from my background, male and female, rarely go to such a place). Maybe I was fortunate in a way to have a mother who was politically a self-described Communist, but reading books and that other side of 'political education' on my own terms came much later. 'Feminism' as I understand it, as a ball-scratching brute of a prole, is the class struggle. It's inseparable if it is to have any chance of building a new society.

I 'make the tea' for my educated non-white working class partner quite often, but I might poison her with my creations one of these days. It can get complicated can't it? This class business. When people can appear to speak down to or for those with little or no social/cultural capital, without the formal education, without the confidence, without the means, with different class experiences. To see the importance of things differently, of what matters, on what needs to be focused on the most, and in the process to reproduce, without realising it, some of the very things (the social divisions) people are sincerely seeking to change. Maybe there are some posh people shouting, and some of those shouts are about the right things. But maybe, just maybe, those shouts are drowning out other voices. I hate to say this shit, but a lot of privilege that is ignored or not even seen as a problem, specifically class privilege, needs to be 'checked.' It's not about seeking out enemies, but communication, dialogue, understanding. More widely, with seeing how class affects people differently, people at the bottom might not get trampled over by people supposedly on their side, to never even have their existence as political actors acknowledged, taken seriously, to know that what they think, what they have to say, actually matters.

That's a good post. But as a man you still have more power than me. You still have society's nod to walk away from the kids, you still have better chances of earning more money (cos you are less likely to stay home with littleuns), you are still stronger than me and if you want to get physical you'll still win, you'll still be taken more seriously when you speak, you don't have to be as afraid at night. Working class women get a shitter deal than working class men. That's important. It shouldn't be dismissed cos some or even most of the feminist movement (well the vocal ones the ones that get heard in books, twitter etc) are middle class. I hear what you are saying about these loud voices, I agree with you that they are drowning out other important voices. But listen to YOUR women too when we say that it's still an issue at every level.

 

[seventh bullet]

That's a good post. But as a man you still have more power than me. You still have society's nod to walk away from the kids, you still have better chances of earning more money (cos you are less likely to stay home with littleuns), you are still stronger than me and if you want to get physical you'll still win, you'll still be taken more seriously when you speak, you don't have to be as afraid at night. Working class women get a shitter deal than working class men. That's important. It shouldn't be dismissed cos some or even most of the feminist movement (well the vocal ones the ones that get heard in books, twitter etc) are middle class. I hear what you are saying about these loud voices, I agree with you that they are drowning out other important voices. But listen to YOUR women too when we say that it's still an issue at every level.

That is one of the main points of my post and I agree with much of what you've said. It is quite the opposite of dismissing it. The first part wasn't about me in the sense that it was an illustration, albeit anecdotal, of how social and economic (class) inequality affects women more sharply. It was more about my mum.

However, wealthier middle class and upper class women have huge advantages over people, both male and female, of my class and background. Questioning relations of power, challenging those relations, does not mean attacking people for being women, but understanding their place in this society vis-a-vis mine, looking at structural class-based inequalities. It doesn't mean that, as a man, I could not sexually harass/intimidate her and get away with it, bully her, 'own' a public space in which she and I are present, or easily beat her physically, and all the other ugly cross-class manifestations of patriarchy, even if we don't see it, because I belong to an 'inferior ' social class.

She will most likely have more choices in life afforded by her wealth and status than me, live in better housing, a safer neighbourhood, be at less risk of injury or death in work, have better access to healthcare, educational opportunities, and with it, the chance to do more fulfilling, high-paying work where talents are realised rather than never even developed (and the chances to change 'careers', us lot down here just have jobs); that's if she even needs to work at all as she might exploit the labour of other people for her own personal benefit, both male and female. Her privileged freedom, or relative lack of it in relation to men of her class position, can be because she herself is restricting the freedom of working class women lower down in the choices she makes and the power she wields. She can have the power, along with others of her class, to make decisions (they may be imperative to the needs of her class) that can affect my life and others in really negative, appalling ways. You can understand how patriarchy benefits all men while also understanding that capitalism benefits only a few men and women. Both need to be challenged at the same time.

And, my women?

 

[darwinlarfin]

Absolutley, why not?

 

[darwinlarfin]

Absolutley, why not?

 

[ViolentPanda]

even the batshit stuff is thought provoking, especially when read in context rather than quoted partially and out of context by her enemies 30 years later...

Thanks for saying that so that I didn't have to (yet again!).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Having looked after child and elderly relative I can honestly say that women do not do all the unpaid caring. And I don't believe I am the only man to have done so...

Where does (and historically has) the weight of the burden fallen, though? On women, not on men, and the existence of a minority of men assuming the burden doesn't change the underlying dynamic.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And I agree with him that it often feels like that. It does bloody feel like that and I hate women like Caitlin Moran, what a stupid bitch I hate her. But it sticks in your throat having working class men dithering on about class struggle being more important. Who're you to say ffs?!

There's a difference between your perspective as a woman directly experiencing sexism, and his perspective as a male experiencing classism, so there's always likely to be a disconnect between parties.
it is, IMO, fair to say that the class struggle encompasses all other -isms, and that winning the class war should solve those other -isms more easily than trying to do so within an economic and a social system that feeds off of the -isms.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Er, I don't think she said all caring is done by women.

Why do people lose or seem so willing to throw away, their reading comprehension skills on these threads.

Because some people react viscerally against or for ideas, and that kind of erases any exercise of critical thinking on their part, unfortunately.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"But what about the menz?"

Because, of course, "the menz" have nothing, as a gender, going for them, the poor oppressed little scamps.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

There's a difference between your perspective as a woman directly experiencing sexism, and his perspective as a male experiencing classism, so there's always likely to be a disconnect between parties.
it is, IMO, fair to say that the class struggle encompasses all other -isms, and that winning the class war should solve those other -isms more easily than trying to do so within an economic and a social system that feeds off of the -isms.

Winning the class war will stop sexism?! Wha? How ffs?

 

[gamerunknown]

Radical feminism doesnt explain the fact that in women's prisons there are rapes and similar sexual etc violence as in mens jails.

Just as a semantic point, this isn't true under English law. Rape is a crime perpetrated only by men (though individuals now identifying as women can have perpetrated a rape - not sure about how those identifying as women with penises would be classified actually). Though it is important to acknowledge that there can be power disparities and sexual coercion and abuse between women in such situations.

Feminist means something.

To me, feminism is both a tool for analysing society and a program for addressing its iniquities. So a feminist may prioritise organising against sexual harassment at work or domestic violence, as women are disproportionately victims of both (and on the analytic side, this can be attributed to male domination - patriarchy). Yes, even a revolutionary movement can be recuperated by the state. We saw that with trade unionism, which initially was considered perhaps the preeminent threat to the existence of the state and has now been incorporated into its running. Male dominance has characterised the last two modes of production, feudal and capitalist, though arguably not that of primitive communism (Malthus claimed it did given what he knew about the conditions of native American women). Anyway, movements with legal outcomes also alter society - the criminalisation of rape within marriage simultaneously accompanied a shift in the social position towards what constitutes rape.

Finally, I think the end-game is rising above the term of "feminism" or "chauvinism". They should both be disposed of as soon as possible.

Disposing of feminism in a society predicated on male dominance is reactionary. Feminism is indispensable as long as there is patriarchy.

And.. I have no idea why or on what basis we women should think that 'come the revolution' (whatever that actually means) it'll be any bloody different between men and women! As if men are suddenly gonna stop hitting women, stop being the ones in charge etc. Why the fuck should they? There's as much sexism on the left as anywhere else isn't there? I fail to see that revolution or communism or socialism or anything else will make any difference for how women are treated compared to men. It's just men telling us not to worry again.

Winning the class war will stop sexism?! Wha? How ffs?

By abolishing class distinctions and altering the mode of production, much, if not all of the structural oppression faced by women will disappear. Women will no longer be expected to remain in relationships to ensure that they or their children receive provisions, instead, each will receive according to need. Men, women and those not fitting either category will associate freely for productive and emotional purposes. Anyone attempting to take "charge" or initiating violence will suddenly find they can not enter into these associations. Anything else will entail that the revolution has not been consummated.

Edit: It's also at the height of revolutionary activity that these forms of oppression are eroded (though that represents years of collective ferment).

Anybody who knows anything of history knows that great social changes are impossible without the feminine ferment. Social progress can be measured exactly by the social position of the fair sex (the ugly ones included).

This is important, because as you alluded to, men are on average more capable of physical coercion. If that possibility for defection is maintained, then the social revolution is lost.

I am truly free only when all human beings, men and women, are equally free. The freedom of other men, far from negating or limiting my freedom, is, on the contrary, its necessary premise and confirmation.

Bakunin explicitly stresses the equal rights and equal obligations of men and women participating in a free society.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

Jesus, he said ugly ones included? Not sure you need much more evidence that feminism would still be needed.

 

[Interloper]

#nomorepage3

Oh wait

#freethenipple

 

[ViolentPanda]

Winning the class war will stop sexism?! Wha? How ffs?

I didn't say it'll "stop sexism", I said that winning the class war should help solve the other -isms. People who treat one another equally with regard to the over-arching social division will have no excuse whatsoever for maintaining other social divisions. As seventh bullet acutely observed, all other -isms cut across classism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Just as a semantic point, this isn't true under English law. Rape is a crime perpetrated only by men (though individuals now identifying as women can have perpetrated a rape - not sure about how those identifying as women with penises would be classified actually). Though it is important to acknowledge that there can be power disparities and sexual coercion and abuse between women in such situations.

Since the legal definition of rape was expanded (in 2009, I think) to encompass "penetration of anus or vagina with genitals, fingers or other objects", the definition does also encompass woman-on-woman sexual violence, although I'm not aware of much use of the broadened definition, except in regard to male-on-female and male-on-male sexual violence.

 

[gamerunknown]

Since the legal definition of rape was expanded (in 2009, I think) to encompass "penetration of anus or vagina with genitals, fingers or other objects", the definition does also encompass woman-on-woman sexual violence, although I'm not aware of much use of the broadened definition, except in regard to male-on-female and male-on-male sexual violence.

I received training on this last year where I said I thought non-males could commit rape and I was rebutted. What you've quoted is similar to the existing offence of "assault by penetration", which is incorporated in the 2003 act. There was a sexual offences act of 2009 in Scotland, but it reiterates rape as occurring with a penis (though expanding the definition to include a surgically constructed one).

 

[Vincent]

Er, I don't think she said all caring is done by women.

Why do people lose or seem so willing to throw away, their reading comprehension skills on these threads.

"She" didn't but someone else did. My comprehension skills maybe be thrown out when reading but I am paying attention to what I reply to...

 

[Vincent]

<post overlapped edit>

It's not an easy question.

I was going to go for 'actress', but it's a flawed answer, really.[/QUOT

Ha, i obvs didn't present that as a genuine stat. Yeah, the vast majority of times i see the whit about class statement being brought up it's either- a) by intersectionalists misrepresenting folk who think class based analysis is important or b)what i said before. I've never been shut down by that class statement, but i am disagreed with by men alllll the time(shut down, not so much, i'm never done shouting). I'm not saying it doesn't happen, like. And since Vincent is on a net forum, he cannae shut anyone dowe. I wish people would STFU with the SHUT ME DOWN carry on, it's getting a bit wearing like.

Why would I want to shut anyone down? The whole point of a forum like this is to have the equal right to express thoughts and ideas. To listen to others...and hopefully become wiser to how others experience of the world. Maybe I put my points across badly...and thus should I elect to STFU and shut myself down? I will let those on the forum decide.

 

[equationgirl]

"She" didn't but someone else did. My comprehension skills maybe be thrown out when reading but I am paying attention to what I reply to...

Still waiting for you to tell us which jobs done by women aren't open to men.

 

[Vincent]

Still waiting for you to tell us which jobs done by women aren't open to men.

Nannies...