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Should men describe themselves as feminists, if they are supportive of feminism?

Yes, but I want more. If a big part of the answer to getting rid of male domination is socialism (or anarchy or liberalism) like has been suggested on this thread, then I want to know how. I want to know what that looks like and how it would work to solve the very problems that she so eloquently puts. I want answers!
Isn't that answer/change going to have to come from men? So men behave, look after kids, let women go out with mates (pretty sad stuff you posted above) etc etc etc. Long long process....but it has started...
 
its going to have to come from us all. No pushing from one to the other except if neccasary. No recognizing who goes along with things for a quiet life and using them. Its a societal response needed, not necessarily some gendered camps working through etc. We're all the same goddam species, not aliens.
 
I disagree. Cos in my experience people don't give up the power they have easily. There's no reason to think men would suddenly recognise reproductive work (in the wider sense that James uses) as work as equal, valid and as or more difficult than paid work.

The men on this thread say too easily that feminism isn't needed, that the focus should be on the class struggle first, but so far there hasn't been an explanation of why. I'm looking for the explanation cos you'll excuse me if I'm skeptical.
 
I said class politics should cover it in principle but as class politics is over ridden with white males and we live in a patriarchy, feminism is needed as a counter balance. It still needs to exist through the arguments of class though, otherwise we're just arguing for equality for women in the class system. Does Thatcher fucking us over make it all fair because she's female?
 
What I mean is this. In that radio interview with Selma James, she talks about the 'wage relation' being the fundamental thing. The idea that workers are exploited by being paid say £100 pw whilst making their employer say £300 pw. But that fundamental power relation also influences the situation between you and the people in your family who don't have wages (usually the woman)- because the woman must work at home to support the man earning the wage.

So I get that. It makes sense. And from experience.

But the bit I want to understand is how changing that wage relation- from capitalist to something different- will change the unwaged power relation.

So I get that far, then I draw a blank. Because I don't know. I'm largely ignorant of what a different system that doesn't rely on exploitation works. Say for example we nationalise all industries, they become not for profit. Great. Does that remove the waged/unwaged power relation? I don't see how.
 
"just arguing for equality for women in the class system" would be a start though wouldn't it?

And yes I agree with Nancy Winks, you could change an economic system and still have men who are cnuts right?
 
I said class politics should cover it in principle but as class politics is over ridden with white males and we live in a patriarchy, feminism is needed as a counter balance. It still needs to exist through the arguments of class though, otherwise we're just arguing for equality for women in the class system. Does Thatcher fucking us over make it all fair because she's female?
James makes it clear that not all women are on our side. That a woman in power has as little impetus as a man to consider reproductive work as work. As was born out of Blairs Goverment despite the number of female MPs. Which also makes sense.
 
"just arguing for equality for women in the class system" would be a start though wouldn't it?

And yes I agree with Nancy Winks, you could change an economic system and still have men who are cnuts right?
No. It's not about individual men being cunts. It's about understanding how the structure underlying society either supports (like capitalism) or eliminates (like something else?) the power relations between waged & unwaged.
 
James makes it clear that not all women are on our side. That a woman in power has as little impetus as a man to consider reproductive work as work. As was born out of Blairs Goverment despite the number of female MPs. Which also makes sense.

Yes, because of class!
 
So I get that far, then I draw a blank. Because I don't know. I'm largely ignorant of what a different system that doesn't rely on exploitation works. Say for example we nationalise all industries, they become not for profit. Great. Does that remove the waged/unwaged power relation? I don't see how.

The ideal with the nationalisation of industries is that they'd be administered by a central body which represented the collective will of workers and peasants, which would enable a milieu where wage relations were gradually ameliorated until that central body became totally defunct and withered away - full communism. We've found that in all societies attempting such a feat that this hasn't actually come to fruition though, in fact, the only means in which wage relations are threatened is by the spontaneous interaction of freely associating equals in their workplaces and communities. In the cases I know of, this has come in times of severe peril for the working class - with the attempted fascist coup in Spain, under Japanese occupation in Korea and a Ukraine assailed by both Denikin's and Trotsky's forces.

See here for a fuller exposition and here for a glimpse of how we could possibly get there.

As for why a society without wages would adopt distribution by need? Because the forms of association would enable us to expand our circles of sympathy, being less inclined to parochialism (though we should countenance a genetic predisposition to preferring family members, which Aristotle warned about).
 
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I disagree. Cos in my experience people don't give up the power they have easily. There's no reason to think men would suddenly recognise reproductive work (in the wider sense that James uses) as work as equal, valid and as or more difficult than paid work.

The men on this thread say too easily that feminism isn't needed, that the focus should be on the class struggle first, but so far there hasn't been an explanation of why. I'm looking for the explanation cos you'll excuse me if I'm skeptical.

who is saying this, nobody is saying the victory of the working class will obviate gender difficulties. Its a very crude reduction to say lefty men are saying 'wait luv, it'll all be sorted once we've won the class war'

Part and parcel and when the day comes I want women at my side deciding the way things shall be!
 
I like James tho. I like "invest in caring not killing" as an idea. And I can see directly how that would translate to using military budget to pay wages for housework. You can laugh but the reason I started going to church and exploring Christianity was a fundamental belief in the importance of love and care. Interestingly she's also been very involved in the ECP and the campaign to decriminalise (properly decriminalise) prostitution which as you know I have strong opinions on. Fully intend to read more of her stuff.
 
who is saying this, nobody is saying the victory of the working class will obviate gender difficulties. Its a very crude reduction to say lefty men are saying 'wait luv, it'll all be sorted once we've won the class war'

Part and parcel and when the day comes I want women at my side deciding the way things shall be!
Yes I accept that. I don't mean to reduce it. I mean to try and understand the how.
 
What I mean is this. In that radio interview with Selma James, she talks about the 'wage relation' being the fundamental thing. The idea that workers are exploited by being paid say £100 pw whilst making their employer say £300 pw. But that fundamental power relation also influences the situation between you and the people in your family who don't have wages (usually the woman)- because the woman must work at home to support the man earning the wage.

So I get that. It makes sense. And from experience.

But the bit I want to understand is how changing that wage relation- from capitalist to something different- will change the unwaged power relation.

So I get that far, then I draw a blank. Because I don't know. I'm largely ignorant of what a different system that doesn't rely on exploitation works. Say for example we nationalise all industries, they become not for profit. Great. Does that remove the waged/unwaged power relation? I don't see how.

I'll make a little argument here:

In capitalism, there are two groups of people that benefit from women providing unwaged work: capital and men. Under socialism there wouldn't be capital, nor would there be a different group of people to replace them (like in the USSR there was the political class), because there wouldn't be economic inequality.

That leaves us with men, and I agree with you here, men would still benefit from the waged/unwaged power relation and we'd need to change that. It'd be easier to change because you wouldn't have the massive power/influence/effect of capital, and because there's already some men who would like to see the waged/unwaged power relation changed. Hopefully there would be a lot by the time we get to socialism, but I see it as a fight that would still need to be fought. What you asked earlier, about who decides regarding ability etc, I can see that there would be some misogynists who would take the line that women are naturally suited to caring roles, like they do now and this is distributing according to ability but leaves women in the same position they are now. Those people would need to experience revolutionary justice ;)

So for me, socialism would make it easier to end patriarchy, but it wouldn't guarantee it.

I also dunno what the structure(s) would be that might replace the existing waged/unwaged relationship - to an extent, this relationship would simply vanish, because nobody would be waged anymore, people would get stuff according to their needs - there's obviously a massive ? here about how this distribution is decided given scarce resources, competing demands etc, but however this is done, it would no longer make sense to think of someone who brings up kids/housework/etc is unwaged whereas someone who does an admin job is waged. BUT there would still be some kind of cultural barrier, the perception that bringing up kids and all the other stuff that goes with that is somehow different (inferior?) to work in a productive organisation, and that it's women who do the first set of roles. The reality of the relationship may well continue even though the words we use change and the economic imbalance is removed.

I would advocate a couple of things that could happen - one would be more shared parenting in terms of parental leave following child birth, the other would be more communal bringing up of kids - not (necessarily) talking about hippy commune type things as much as stuff like babysitting circles and the idea that in a community, the children are everyone's children, so everyone shares responsibility for raising them. Both of these can happen in capitalism, to an extent at least, but are constrained by existing economic relationships and that capitalism as an economic system is more suited to individualistic thinking rather than communal thinking. They (and other similar things) may be easier to introduce/maintain in socialism. The nature of working communally/in common interest to produce our material needs would make it more natural for us to think communaly/in common interest in other areas, rather than the individualism that rises from capitalsim. Very vague and woolly I know but I've got to go and make dinner now.
 
Thanks BigTom

Yes that does make sense.

One thing I like about the idea of wages for housework is that it does away with the debate about whether or if caring is woman's work. It doesn't matter. She recognises that women want children, and women care for others, and that it's not just about us wanting to go out and get jobs necessarily, but rather that we want to stop being exploited for doing the caring we so often do.
 
Thanks BigTom

Yes that does make sense.

One thing I like about the idea of wages for housework is that it does away with the debate about whether or if caring is woman's work. It doesn't matter. She recognises that women want children, and women care for others, and that it's not just about us wanting to go out and get jobs necessarily, but rather that we want to stop being exploited for doing the caring we so often do.

yep, I can see that, and under socialism, housework would be "waged", because all members of a community will be entitled to get according to their needs, and there's no reason why a man needs to be a gateway for a woman to do that. But also I could imagine a community deciding that how they were going to divide all the things they have produced/traded amongst all the people in the community to best meet everyone's needs would be decided at a meeting and oh guess what, someone needs to stay home to take care of the kids, and thus women are excluded from the mechanism that distributes the material outcomes of production, just like in capitalism. I still think that in that situation, housework would be considered "waged" by the community, but if the mechanisms for deciding who gets what "wages" excludes women because patriarchy/men, then something would still be wrong, maybe not exploited to the same scale or way but still not equal, still having men as the gateway.
Doesn't need to be like that though - could be something totally different, something more like capitalism where there are "shops" and people take what they need, knowing what is available and what other peoples' needs are, so they don't take more than they should, could be that everything is evenly distributed and people are left to swap amongst themselves, could be something totally unlike anything we think of.

I have to put wages in " " because it won't actually be wages, but it'll be something that is basically the same thing, in terms of it being the thing that gets us our material needs/desires. Not being wages though will change our relationship to the getting of material stuff, and that will change other relationships - including the parental/housework/gender relationship, because there won't be 1 waged, 1 unwaged (or more often 1 waged, 1 part time waged/full time unwaged) - but I don't know what to call it, or what it'll be exactly.
 
there are loads of speculative ideas on it thought!

Nancy_Winks look at Parecon for a speculative framework. Its interesting. I'm not going to say its yay the best way forward but for something to think on

lots of explorations of ideas in Sci Fi too, totally different way of looking at it than Parecon which is pretty academic economics focused (at least what I've read, I'd imagine there is a lot more written around it by now). Ursula K LeGuin's The Dispossessed is a great read if you've time for fiction Nancy_Winks tells a story of someone living in an idea of what an anarchist society might look like. Been many years since I read it so can't remember how outwardly political it is
 
there are loads of speculative ideas on it though!

Nancy_Winks look at Parecon for a speculative framework. Its interesting. I'm not going to say its yay the best way forward but for something to think on
Am having a read. (This page seems to explain the fundamentals https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/parecon-envisioning-a-life-beyond-capitalism/

BigTom I'll have a read of The Dispossessed when I can if it's well written.

Aware this is drifting from feminism now tho.
 
lots of explorations of ideas in Sci Fi too, totally different way of looking at it than Parecon which is pretty academic economics focused (at least what I've read, I'd imagine there is a lot more written around it by now). Ursula K LeGuin's The Dispossessed is a great read if you've time for fiction Nancy_Winks tells a story of someone living in an idea of what an anarchist society might look like. Been many years since I read it so can't remember how outwardly political it is
What Nancy may also vibe on wrt Le Guin is how she sold a story to Playboy back when they did sci fi stories amongst the tits. When the time came for cheque to be cut and they heard the gendered name Ursula they flipped a lid. She still got paid.
 
Am having a read. (This page seems to explain the fundamentals https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/parecon-envisioning-a-life-beyond-capitalism/

BigTom I'll have a read of The Dispossessed when I can if it's well written.

Aware this is drifting from feminism now tho.

communist, anarcho, feminist- I don't care Le Guin is for her craft alone one of the true greats of our time in her field.

The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas is a very short piece but so so good. Not on topic maybe, but it talks about how we do and why. Horrible and moving.
 
Am having a read. (This page seems to explain the fundamentals https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/parecon-envisioning-a-life-beyond-capitalism/

BigTom I'll have a read of The Dispossessed when I can if it's well written.

Aware this is drifting from feminism now tho.

Ursula is a great writer, her best known works are The Earthsea Trilogy, which is fantasy, but she wrote good sci-fi too, on environmentalist and socialist themes, I'm sure feminisim will be in there too, but probably didn't stand out to me as much as other topics/ideas did. But yeah, let's let the conversation move back to feminism.
 
Yesterday I chased a labour party shill down the road to harangue him about clause 4. I think my posadist take on genetics may be some time coming.
 
Actually, that radical journal has got loads of interesting sounding stuff. Just found another Selma James one, and there's one called Why Socialism by Einstein. I'll give that a go :hmm:
 
Ah fuck that's so well explained. Here's part of the answer I've wanted her to give!


The parallels that are drawn between the Black and women's movements can always turn into an 11-plus: who is more exploited? Our purpose here is not parallels. We are seeking to describe that complex interweaving of forces which is the working class; we are seeking to break down the power relations among us on which is based the hierarchical rule of international capital. For no man can represent us as women any more than whites can speak about and themselves end the Black experience. Nor do we seek to convince men of our feminism. Ultimately they will be "convinced" by our power. We offer them what we offer the most privileged women: power over their enemies. The price is an end to their privilege over us.


The strategy of feminist class struggle is, as we have said, based on the wageless woman in the home. Whether she also works for wages outside the home, her labour of producing and reproducing the working class weighs her down, weakens her capacity to struggle-she doesn't even have time. Her position in the wage structure is low especially but not only if she is Black. And even if she is relatively well placed in the hierarchy of labour powers (rare enough!), she remains defined as a sexual object of men. Why? Because as long as most women are housewives part of whose function in reproducing labour power is to be the sexual object of men, no woman can escape that identity.

We demand wages for the work we do in the home. And that demand for a wage from the State is, first, a demand to be autonomous of men on whom we are now dependent. Secondly, we demand money without working out of the home, and open for the first time the possibility of refusing forced labour in the factories and in the home itself.

(http://radicaljournal.com/essays/selma_james_sex_race_and_cl.html)
 
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