Should men describe themselves as feminists, if they are supportive of feminism?

[Nancy_Winks]

It's a pretty depressing read

 

[gamerunknown]

so capital still doesn't pay for the upbringing of the kids

To an extent though, this labour is sustained by variable capital in the form of wages. Though this would be a relation of revenue and not capital.

HAnd all of those things have a million questions associated (like if you don't have employers, then who do you work for or how does work get done? or what is work anyway? and how would it be worked what is and isn't necessary?). But anyway not to deal with that all at once...

Kropotkin addresses these concerns here.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

To an extent though, this labour is sustained by variable capital in the form of wages. Though this would be a relation of revenue and not capital.



Kropotkin addresses these concerns here.

I can't even...

 

[Nancy_Winks]

Are there any popular political books. Like popular science, but for politics? That are fun to read and explain the ideas in a way that's accessible and not daunting? Frankly that's how I started getting into both science (read Feynman first, the Dawkins, then Medawar) and religion (read Spufford, went from there into American baptist stuff mainly but Lewis too). Politics and economics just seems so impenetrable. Maybe I'm too lazy.

 

[gamerunknown]

Now and After was written in that vein, though it may be a little dated.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

Now and After was written in that vein, though it may be a little dated.

Just read the Foreword. It's dry. Plus written in 1928?!

Edit: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Marx-Right-Terry-Eagleton/dp/0300181531

? any good

 

[DotCommunist]

^^not read it but eagleton is respected. He had beef with Amis so, thats one point in his favour

 

[Orang Utan]

I got this for my library:

I've only had a flick through it, but it looks quite accessible.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

I got this for my library:
View attachment 69784
I've only had a flick through it, but it looks quite accessible.

Just... the title, the design, the Earnestness...

Report back tho Orang Utan

 

[Orang Utan]

Don't let the cover put you off. It's a small press. The content looks good. Less daunting than Das Kapital, any road.

 

[Red Cat]

Are there any popular political books. Like popular science, but for politics? That are fun to read and explain the ideas in a way that's accessible and not daunting? Frankly that's how I started getting into both science (read Feynman first, the Dawkins, then Medawar) and religion (read Spufford, went from there into American baptist stuff mainly but Lewis too). Politics and economics just seems so impenetrable. Maybe I'm too lazy.

Why not the Selma James butchers mentioned?

 

[Nancy_Winks]

Why not the Selma James butchers mentioned?

Is it the right level? You know how you can read The Selfish Gene and even if you've never read a science book on genetics or evolutionary theory before it doesn't matter? It walks you through the idea, with no jargon unexplained, and does it in a way that grabs you and makes you excited. That's what I'm looking for.

For Marx or for anarchism or for classic or socialist liberalism (or more than one, not sure how much they overlap tbh- eg anarchism and classic liberalism seem pretty close (with important differences), as does social liberalism and socialism/communism- are these the same, I dunno).

I'm interested in feminism too, and the equivalent for middle class feminism exists (see Caitlin Moran *spit*) but thought I should give class politics a go first. Isn't that basically what this threads been suggesting anyway?

 

[butchersapron]

Selma James writes like this:

The work that is part of having a child destroys much of the pleasure of having them for the one that has to do the work. To be with the children day in and day out, week in and week out, to clean up after them, and to keep them clean, to worry about whether they are going in the street or are catching a cold is not only a terrible strain, hut it becomes the only thing that you see in your child - the work and the worry involved. You begin to see in the child only the work and none of the pleasure. You feel that every stage of his growing up means, not just a developing child but more work for you to do. You see a child as a hindrance to your getting your other work done and to your having free time. He seems to be "in your way" rather than part of your life. Just about the time that you think you're finished cleaning the house, the kids come home and the whole routine starts all over again, finger marks on the wall, muddy shoes and scattered toys. You don't ever realize how much of a barrier the work of raising a child creates until he finally gets into his teens. He is less work to. you and you rave more time and more of a chance to appreciate him as a person. But then it is too late. He has grown away from you and you can't really see him and know him and appreciate him.

or

It is easy for a man to say it is his child but for the real worry when they are sick or misbehave, how they are eating and how much they sleep. These things are on the women's shoulders. How a child's shoes fit him, where his clothes are' kept, even things like this most fathers don't know anything about. This doesn't mean that fathers like it this way. It's just that even if they didn't there is very little that they can do about it. When they go away in the morning, the kids are usually asleep and when they get home at night they are near their bed time. Their whole lives are concerned with making a living, and the problems involved in that. Because they are not around their children enough, they have very little idea about what children need, not only in the way of physical needs, but in terms of discipline and love and security. The division that is made between home and factory creates a division between the father and his children. It is obvious that when the father and mother lead separate lives, the children as well are going to suffer. They are often used by each parent as weapons against the other. The children seldom know where they stand and try as soon as possible to get away from it all. They refuse to be a part of this constant family war and just disassociate themselves from it as soon as they are old enough.

 

[equationgirl]

I'd think you'd really like the Selma James stuff Nancy_Winks and you'd probably relate a lot to her writing.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

Selma James writes like this:

The work that is part of having a child destroys much of the pleasure of having them for the one that has to do the work. To be with the children day in and day out, week in and week out, to clean up after them, and to keep them clean, to worry about whether they are going in the street or are catching a cold is not only a terrible strain, hut it becomes the only thing that you see in your child - the work and the worry involved. You begin to see in the child only the work and none of the pleasure. You feel that every stage of his growing up means, not just a developing child but more work for you to do. You see a child as a hindrance to your getting your other work done and to your having free time. He seems to be "in your way" rather than part of your life. Just about the time that you think you're finished cleaning the house, the kids come home and the whole routine starts all over again, finger marks on the wall, muddy shoes and scattered toys. You don't ever realize how much of a barrier the work of raising a child creates until he finally gets into his teens. He is less work to. you and you rave more time and more of a chance to appreciate him as a person. But then it is too late. He has grown away from you and you can't really see him and know him and appreciate him.

or

It is easy for a man to say it is his child but for the real worry when they are sick or misbehave, how they are eating and how much they sleep. These things are on the women's shoulders. How a child's shoes fit him, where his clothes are' kept, even things like this most fathers don't know anything about. This doesn't mean that fathers like it this way. It's just that even if they didn't there is very little that they can do about it. When they go away in the morning, the kids are usually asleep and when they get home at night they are near their bed time. Their whole lives are concerned with making a living, and the problems involved in that. Because they are not around their children enough, they have very little idea about what children need, not only in the way of physical needs, but in terms of discipline and love and security. The division that is made between home and factory creates a division between the father and his children. It is obvious that when the father and mother lead separate lives, the children as well are going to suffer. They are often used by each parent as weapons against the other. The children seldom know where they stand and try as soon as possible to get away from it all. They refuse to be a part of this constant family war and just disassociate themselves from it as soon as they are old enough.

I'm convinced. I'll buy it.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

Omg yes. Yes. Yes.

Some men even feel that, though their wives have to stay home with the children, there is no reason for them to stay home with her. So they go out and do as they please, if their wives let them, knowing that their wives are stuck at home constantly taking care of their children. If a man goes out with his friends, a woman usually fights for the right to go out with hers. One woman told me that she was pregnant and that she was sorry since she had a four-month-old baby. She said her husband was glad. She said that he knew that if she was stuck with a child he could go out as he pleased.

Could not be more true. Absolutely. And if you do go out with your mates (on that rare occasion) expect 2,5,10 calls in an hour. And you better answer them, and answer them quick. And the third degree when you get home. And to thank him for it.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

Even where she lives is decided by her husband's work. The part of town that makes going to work the easiest is the part of town that you live in. And if there are no jobs in the town that are in your husband's line of work then you have to forget all your friends and all the ties of Family and you go to where he can find work.

yes

It is not an easy thing for a woman to get used to being a mother. For one thing you know that you are responsible for this child completely. If your husband stops supporting him then you have to. You have to raise him. No one else will. Whatever kind of person he grows up to he will be mainly your doing. As soon as you have a child you have to make your marriage work. Now it is not only you but another person who didn't ask to be born who will suffer if your marriage goes on the rocks. A lot of marriages that would ordinarily break up are held together by the woman in order to save her child from a broken home.

Yes. How much I tried to save my marriage, and how frightening was it that it might break when the kids were little and I really had not a chance in hell of surviving on my own with them without him. Or not without being homeless first and there's no way I'd have put my kids through that. So you put up with a LOT of shit, and you really try VERY very hard to make it work when there's no safety net.

In fact, I'm blown away by how directly she's talking about my life and my marriage and my experience of motherhood.

Wait, I'm getting to the politics now I think...

 

[equationgirl]

I thought you'd like her

 

[weepiper]

I might buy it too

 

[Nancy_Winks]

I might buy it too

Dude it's free. Link above in butchers post ^^

 

[weepiper]

Dude it's free. Link above in butchers post ^^

win.

 

[Citizen66]

i've got Sex, Race and Class and can report it's an accessible read.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

Oh grr that is so frustrating! So she perfectly describes the problem, completely understands women's lives and struggles, and I'm waiting in anticipation for her to go but WAIT there's another way it could be! What about if it was so! But it never comes

 

[Red Cat]

Oh grr that is so frustrating! So she perfectly describes the problem, completely understands women's lives and struggles, and I'm waiting in anticipation for her to go but WAIT there's another way it could be! What about if it was so! But it never comes

No, but she suggests that part of a solution exists in our networks and community, in what we already know, which is very different from the idea that a special person out there gives us the solution, which often isn't actually a solution but a fantasy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, but she suggests that part of a solution exists in our networks and community, in what we already know, which is very different from the idea that a special person out there gives us the solution, which often isn't actually a solution but a fantasy.

That's kind of what I got from her. No prescriptive "solutions", but a suggestion that ways to deal with problems are already there, waiting to be grasped. Makes me think of the totally-unofficial childcare and babysitting network on one of the council estates I grew up on, which worked brilliantly for working mums like mine, without costing the earth, because stuff was done on a quid pro quo basis - someone looks after your kids today, and you look after someone elses' tomorrow sort of thing.

 

[DotCommunist]

parecon in action

 

[Chick Webb]

I don't understand why you keep calling Caitlin Moran middle class, Nancy. She may not really know anything about feminism (but I don't think she claims to be particularily theoretical) but her upbringing appears to me to be as working class as it comes.

 

[Orang Utan]

I don't understand why you keep calling Caitlin Moran middle class, Nancy. She may not really know anything about feminism (but I don't think she claims to be particularily theoretical) but her upbringing appears to me to be as working class as it comes.

Her upbringing, yes. But she is well middle class.

 

[Nancy_Winks]

I don't understand why you keep calling Caitlin Moran middle class, Nancy. She may not really know anything about feminism (but I don't think she claims to be particularily theoretical) but her upbringing appears to me to be as working class as it comes.

I'd just assumed tbh. I just thought she was part of the whole Islington set. Maybe I'm wrong

 

[Nancy_Winks]

No, but she suggests that part of a solution exists in our networks and community, in what we already know, which is very different from the idea that a special person out there gives us the solution, which often isn't actually a solution but a fantasy.

Yes, but I want more. If a big part of the answer to getting rid of male domination is socialism (or anarchy or liberalism) like has been suggested on this thread, then I want to know how. I want to know what that looks like and how it would work to solve the very problems that she so eloquently puts. I want answers!