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Selling Out: Where is the line crossed?

Trade union reps and socialists who become managers with the power to discipline and sack staff have crossed the line from us to them imo.
 
ViolentPanda said:
I'm not convinced that "where is the line crossed?" is a worthwhile question. It assumes that there's a fixed point which shouldn't be transgressed, but there isn't. There is no "line in the sand".
The "line in the sand" doesn't just differ from person to person, but from event to event,and from context to context, and unless we're benevolent enough to actually judge each case on its merits, then all we do is act as self-righteous, sententious pontificators cheerleading our own opinions.
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Agree. We're all compromised by, and we all have to make compromises with, the system, in order not to be swallowed up by it.
 
Fozzie Bear said:
...

I think the big question for me is - what should this mean, socially? Should stuff like this just generate muttering behind people's backs or should it mean more than that?

The RTB/socialism thread was interesting because it seemed to be suggesting that just because someone had bought their council flat in the 80s they should be excluded from calling themselves a socialist - and presumably from taking part in socially progressive political action. That's 1.5 million households in the UK who "shouldn't" be involved with trade unions, going on demonstrations, etc?
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it is an interesting question....something ive wondered about before is the difference between now and the more hardline 70s/80s ~ my impression is that in political circles in those days the lines were a lot redder and to cross them did have bigger consequences... for better and for worse... for better in that a sense of commitment and importance to actions was running high, and worse because being on the wrong end of righteousness could lead to anger, resentment and alienation

...twenty to thirty years later theres a greater sense of realpolitik when it comes to the personal is political...people are far less likely to crtiticise others for their personal 'life choices'... yet it does still happen in an old skool way: id expect it would be picked up on if you openly read a copy of the Sun in a pub in Liverpool for example.

I think the pendulum has swung a little too far on the tolerance spectrum..... the respect of your peers is a key part of the glue of socialism for me (and respect has to be earned)...late capitalism hyper-individualism gives space to people to act selfishly
 
ska invita said:
it is an interesting question....something ive wondered about before is the difference between now and the more hardline 70s/80s ~ my impression is that in political circles in those days the lines were a lot redder and to cross them did have bigger consequences... for better and for worse... for better in that a sense of commitment and importance to actions was running high, and worse because being on the wrong end of righteousness could lead to anger, resentment and alienation

...twenty to thirty years later theres a greater sense of realpolitik when it comes to the personal is political...people are far less likely to crtiticise others for their personal 'life choices'... yet it does still happen in an old skool way: id expect it would be picked up on if you openly read a copy of the Sun in a pub in Liverpool for example.

I think the pendulum has swung a little too far on the tolerance spectrum..... the respect of your peers is a key part of the fabric of socialism for me
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It's also an indication of how much we have lost since then, though. You have to be more tolerant of others' choices when you know that those choices are constrained by twelve different kinds of shit.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
In the late 70s/80s, you could get a council house/flat within a few years. You could squat. Private renting wasn't such a headfuck. You could sign on with less hassle. You could go to uni with a grant if you fancied it. There were options that didn't cost money that don't exist now.
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this is true
 
Maybe it's a mark of powerless we feel, that we end up having all these conversations about individual agency and morality.
 
killer b said:
why doesn't this count?
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It absolutely does. I'm sure William has had a bit of stick about it in the past so I'm surprised he's dragged it up again. Depriving someone else on the waiting list of a home whilst living elsewhere is really shitty.
 
fwiw I have always thought that if you are in a job that entails being economical with the actualite (most managers) you have probably crossed a line of some sort
 
SpookyFrank said:
You can't not have a bank account these days, not if you want a job or a place to live.

And buying stuff on credit cards isn't selling out, it's just a really bad idea.
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He had some sort of Post Office account that apparently passed the M-L sniff test.

That list, and it is far from complete, makes him sound like a raving lunatic but he wasn't. He was a warm, funny and clever man but with extreme, often contrary and trenchantly held views on almost every subject in the world. If it weren't for his relentless 18 year experiment to see how much academic achievement he could get out of his two not particularly intelligent children I would have done nothing worthwhile with my life.
 
Up until recently I had a personal investment portfolio. I didn't want to have cash invested in the stock market, I was selective in companies I invested in and I also had a goal - save a deposit to buy a house. If I didn't invest I wouldn't have been able to buy a house. I move in next month, and I have sold all my shares.

Alternatives would have been to rent for the rest of my life or to watch my saving dwindle against house prices. The bigger picture being that I blame government's economic policies for pushing me in a particular direction.

For similar reasons I don't blame individuals for having buy to let, or whatever else. Folk just try to make the best of the position they are landed with. Any anger IMO is towards those who create the rules or organisations with enough power to influence or base a business on profiting from what I see as unethical practices. Generally I don't think lifestyle choices have much of an impact on the general running of things.


One line I draw is in buying stuff from fast food chains - industries which are heavily involved in a supply chain of factory food which inevitably requires a deunionised workforce. I'm privileged enough to be able to take this and other principled lifestyle choices. Organised enough to take a packed lunch and flask.

Based on my ethics and where I draw the line I find it weird that people posting very principled responses in this thread have also declared their love of certain filthy fast food chains in another thread. But each to their own.
 
fredfelt said:
For similar reasons I don't blame individuals for having buy to let, or whatever else. Folk just try to make the best of the position they are landed with. Any anger IMO is towards those who create the rules or organisations with enough power to influence or base a business on profiting from what I see as unethical practices. Generally I don't think lifestyle choices have much of an impact on the general running of things.
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I disagree. Buy to let reduces the houses available to buy, makes more people dependent on private landlords and pushes up prices. Buy to let landlords are essentially parasites. That prevailing policies enable this doesn't get the people who choose to do so off the hook imo.
 
Jeff Robinson said:
I disagree. Buy to let reduces the houses available to buy, makes more people dependent on private landlords and pushes up prices. Buy to let landlords are essentially parasites. That prevailing policies enable this doesn't get the people who choose to do so off the hook imo.
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The thing I hate about buy to let landlords I know is that they moan all the time about how hard it is, how difficult it is to deal with their tenants. When I suggest that they invest their money on the stock market or open a newsagents instead they go all quiet though.

As far as I can tell it is essentially a licence to print money and also turns people into wankers. There are structural reasons for this, but at the end of the day someone is a wanker or they aren't.
 
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Fozzie Bear said:
The thing I hate about buy to let landlords I know is that they moan all the time about how hard it is, how difficult it is to deal with their tenants. When I suggest that they invest their money on the stock market or open a newsagents instead they go all quiet though.

As far as I can tell it is essentially a licence to print money and also turns people into wankers. There are structural reasons for this, but at the end of the day someone is a wanker or they aren't.
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Got to be a bit of wanker in the soul before starting down that road.
 
butchersapron said:
Got to be a bit of wanker in the soul before starting down that road.
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Well I think so, yeah. I've got relatives who have done it because they were self taught handymen and doing up houses is what they know and there isn't much other work going in the shitpit area they live.

But it is just wrong, basically. And it does become an ideology - they all loved Alan Sugar's autobiography...
 
Doing something that is against your principles is, by definition, selling out. The question surely is hw much that matters. Is there value in sticking to your guns, no matter how much it cost you and how little difference it makes?
 
kabbes said:
Doing something that is against your principles is, by definition, selling out. The question surely is hw much that matters. Is there value in sticking to your guns, no matter how much it cost you and how little difference it makes?
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'no matter how much it cost you', no, not necessarily. We're all compromised in one way or another by the system. But the idea that if it makes little difference it's not worthwhile I don't go along with. There is a point about your own self-value in how you conduct yourself in the world, whether it makes little difference or no difference. Plus, you can't actually know how much difference a principled action will make if you never take it.
 
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