Saudi gang rape victim sentenced to lashes and prison

[sleaterkinney]

No, I can't be arsed arguing with you, that's all.

 

[butchersapron]

No what?

 

[invisibleplanet]

I wasn't offering a model, but it was revealing how you dealt with it. Sickening too.

By all means make more unfounded insinuations. But the fact remains - you completely failed to deal with what you accuse me of not fully dealing with by your focus throughout the thread directed at snide interjections and petty point scoring. The fault therefore lies firmly with you. If you saw something that needed saying, and failed to say it, and then accused me of not dealing with it how you thought I should, then the fault lies with you.

 

[butchersapron]

By all means make more unfounded insinuations. But the fact remains - you completely failed to deal with what you accuse me of not fully dealing with by your focus throughout the thread with snide interjections and petty point scoring. The fault therefore lies firmly with you. If you saw something that needed saying, and failed to say it, and then accused me of not dealing with it how you thought I should, then the fault lies with you.

I didn't fail to say it though. Fuck sharia, fuck this kid and fuck his handholders. I think i already said all that didn't i?

 

[invisibleplanet]

I didn't fail to say it though. Fuck sharia, fuck this kid and fuck his handholders. I think i already said all that didn't i?

Not well enough if you're finding fault with me on't, no.

 

[butchersapron]

Not well enough if you're finding fault with me on't, no.

What are you fucking Allah?

 

[nino_savatte]

AFAIK no-one has ever pressured Saudi to change its internal practices

Quite, Saudi Arabia does what it likes. This government (and previous ones) have fought shy of outright criticism of the Saudis. No single country seems to have the guts to really take them on. I guess they're far too busy tying up 'defence' contracts with them to do anything else.

 

[butchersapron]

Quite, Saudi Arabia does what it likes. This government (and previous ones) have fought shy of outright criticism of the Saudis. No one country seems to have the guts to really take them on. I guess they're far too busy tying up 'defence' contracts with them to do anything else.

No one is allowed to - remember?

 

[goldenecitrone]

But even more than all that I wouldn't take seriously a person who just says 'Muhammad is a paedo' cos it's clear they are happy to brainlessly regurgitate the one myth that anti-Muslim bigots love to throw around

Hey, that wasn't brainless, it was a poor text speak joke, there's a difference.

 

[butchersapron]

4 off po face racist

 

[goldenecitrone]

4 off po face racist

4 off yourself, n11 (in Spanish).

 

[butchersapron]

Total 9. Post reported.

 

[nino_savatte]

Interesting article here
http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=2864&l=1

Note how the International Crisis Group makes recommendations. Does anyone think the Saud family is likely to take these on board? I don't.

 

[MikeMcc]

Interesting article here
http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=2864&l=1

Note how the International Crisis Group makes recommendations. Does anyone think the Saud family is likely to take these on board? I don't.

An interesting document, but I agree that their aspirations are woefully naive. Most likely is increased repression from the existing state apparatus until the fundamentalists are able to cause enough destruction to topple the govenerment and the Royal family. The moderates that the report mentions will be the poor buggers caught in the middle. Unfortunately I can't see any way that anyone can help the moderates. The postions of the two extremes are too entrenched, the system there doesn't tolerate change even when it's clearly in it's self-interest.

 

[Yossarian]

Total 9. Post reported.

What totals 9? The number of the Prophet's wives?

 

[CyberRose]

Interesting article here
http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=2864&l=1

Note how the International Crisis Group makes recommendations. Does anyone think the Saud family is likely to take these on board? I don't.

The problem with Saudi Arabia is that the ones calling the shots domestically are the hard line Islamists, and oppose any attempts at democratic reform. The reformist half of the government, I think, tend to work in the diplomatic end of government and are the face of Saudi Arabia to the outside world. That means we are always presented the Saudi government as being keen on reform, but at the end of the day, they are not the ones passing these laws.

But, everyone in the elite is happy. The oil princes (aka America's "reformers") get their palaces and their petro dollars and their whores and alcohol in the Emirates and Beirut, the Americans have secure military and oil bases and they both leave the religious leaders alone to do as they please to ordinary Saudis because why upset the apple cart when everyone is so happy?

If the "reformers" start putting pressure on the religious leaders they face domestic revolt. The religious leaders, while wanting to be free of American influence and freely pouring money into al-Qaida and related terrorist groups that are all too happy to attack the West, are fairly content with the theocracy they have created and can't see any reason why they would want to democratise and give those inferior women any rights whatsoever.

So no, no they won't take any of those recommendations on board and nobody will put any outside pressure on them to take on board those recommendations because everybody's happy with the current arrangements...

 

[butchersapron]

The problem with Saudi Arabia is that the ones calling the shots domestically are the hard line Islamists, and oppose any attempts at democratic reform.

That's part of the problem, another part is that those outside the royal family who are pushing for reforms are also islamists.

 

[DexterTCN]

Isn't the whole fucking country Islamist?

The trouble may be with the whole political system being kept in the dark ages by interested parties. Not so much the prevailing dark age version of religion being part and parcel of the whole oil-well. I mean .... maybe we should boycott?

 

[fattboy]

I'm menstruating, and thirsty. Will you give me of your cup to drink, or is this Haram?

why wouldnt i, i think ur getting Islam mixed up with some Judaism there

 

[invisibleplanet]

why wouldnt i, i think ur getting Islam mixed up with some Judaism there

No, I'm not. It's a story I remember about your Prophet Muhammed - he shocked the men in his company by not only passing a cup to his menstruating wife, but allowing her to drink from hers. I was wondering how well you knew of the improvements he had gained for women in his own time. And I am wondering if it's possible to have some great leaps forward in these regions such as Saudi Arabia, where today they practice an Islam that treats women as chattel and doesn't allow them freedom and equal rights as men have - to drive, to be educated, to work, to travel w/o male, to have male friends. It's a crying shame that Saudi and Pakistan allow men to get away with being beastly to women.

And your Prophet Muhammed followed Jewish customs before he founded Islam, so he broke with the pre-Islamic attitudes toward women in the ME by this act of cup-passing. Some say he is descended from the exiled High Priest, Onias III and Jorhom a Jordanian Princess.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Anyway, back on topic, (although womens' rights in all Orthodox interpretations of religion, be they Islamic, Jewish, or Christian) should be under scrutiny EQUALLY. . .)

Here's an article in the Independent which I don't know whether it has been posted here yet.

A young woman has been sentenced to 200 lashes after being gang-raped. The Western world has expressed outrage – which has, in turn, provoked anger among the Saudi establishment. Now, for the first time, the woman tells her story. By Daniel Howden

Published: 29 November 2007
Inside Saudi Arabia she has come to be known simply as the "Qatif girl", a teenager who was gang-raped then humiliated by first the police, then the judicial authorities. Her case has propelled her into the international headlines and made her an acute embarrassment for the House of Saud. To the Saudi Justice Ministry, she is an adulteress whose case is being used by critics of the Kingdom. To much of the rest of the world, she is a symbol of all that's wrong with Saudi Arabia.

Today she lives under effective house arrest. She is forbidden to speak and may be taken into custody at any time. Her family's movements are monitored by the religious police and their telephones are tapped.

Her lawyer, Saudi Arabia's foremost human rights advocate, Abd al-Rahman al-Lahem, has been suspended. He has had his passport confiscated and faces a hearing next week in which he may be disbarred. The crime of "Qatif girl", it seems, has been to refuse to be silent about what has happened to her. The 19-year-old first sought to bring to justice the seven men who raped her, then complained in public when the courts saw fit to sentence her to 90 lashes for "mingling", the crime of being out in public with a male who was not her relative prior to the attack.

Coverage of the case this month in the usually tightly censored Saudi media infuriated the authorities. They increased her sentence to 200 lashes and six months in prison. Her sentence still hangs over her. Note: Now rescinded

The girl's fate has become an issue in the US presidential election where the candidates have lined up to denounce her treatment as "barbaric", and Prince Saud al-Faisal was forced, much to his annoyance, to answer hostile questions about her case at the Middle East peace talks in Annapolis this week. "What is outraging about this case is that it is being used against the Saudi government and people," he told reporters.

The Saudi Justice Ministry has launched a deliberate "campaign of defamation" against the girl, said Farida Deif, a Middle East expert with Human Rights Watch, who is among the few independent observers to have met the girl. "They are saying she is not really a victim," Ms Deif said. "They are implying she was an adulteress. They are saying she was undressed before the attackers entered her car."

The Independent has obtained testimony in which the girl describes her attack, the struggle to get the police to take action and the harrowing court appearances that followed.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article3204058.ece

Click the link to read her story - it is truly harrowing.

 

[fattboy]

No, I'm not. It's a story I remember about your Prophet Muhammed - he shocked the men in his company by not only passing a cup to his menstruating wife, but allowing her to drink from hers. I was wondering how well you knew of the improvements he had gained for women in his own time. And I am wondering if it's possible to have some great leaps forward in these regions such as Saudi Arabia, where today they practice an Islam that treats women as chattel and doesn't allow them freedom and equal rights as men have - to drive, to be educated, to work, to travel w/o male, to have male friends. It's a crying shame that Saudi and Pakistan allow men to get away with being beastly to women.

And your Prophet Muhammed followed Jewish customs before he founded Islam, so he broke with the pre-Islamic attitudes toward women in the ME by this act of cup-passing. Some say he is descended from the exiled High Priest, Onias III and Jorhom a Jordanian Princess.

i dont know of this particular incident, but i know that the Prophet pbuh, and his beloved wife A'isha would drink from the same cup and he would put his lips 2 the exact spot she drank from, such was his love 4 her.

theres no problem in Islam with women being educated whatsoever, Islam promotes learning of beneficial knowledge till the day we die, we've had great women scholars in the past, but in recent times, maybe from cultural restrictions i dont know, i think maybe theres been less, in terms of quality and quantity but this is true of the male scholars also.

about women having male friends, we dont believe in the need 4 this.
how many times has a family broken up because of affairs and ppl getting too friendly with ppl they dont need 2 be.
Islam closes the door on all this, men dont need 2 mix with women they dont have a valid reason 2 and the same applies 2 the women, it makes things a lot easier and cuts out a lot of temptation that can lead 2 serious problems.

i dunno about the Prophet pbuh following Jewish customs, i know in Medina, the birthplace of the Islamic state,where much if not most of the Revelation came down had a very big Jewish community, and i know the Jews would fast what i think we call Ashura, when the Israelites were rescued by Allah when the sea parted, and when the Prophet pbuh him found this out, he said basically, 'we have more right upon Moses than the Jews' so he too fasted, and also fasted either the day b4 or after 2 differentiate the muslims from the Jews, some non muslims like 2 see this as the Prophet pbuh him 'copying' but this isnt the case, its a statement about how Moses was Muslim, a submitter 2 Allah and His Prophet and servant and our predecessor in religion, and that we who accept all of Allah's Prophets, Books and Guidance r his true successors.

the Prophet pbuh was descended directly from Abraham pbuh, thru his son Ishmael pbuh, brother of Isaac pbuh, so what uve said there i dont know about.
the Ishmaelites (the arabs) r the brethren of the Israelites alluded 2 in Deutronomy 18;18, where Allah Promises a Prophet who will tell them everything He Commands and warns against disobeying him.

 

[MikeMcc]

about women having male friends, we dont believe in the need 4 this.
how many times has a family broken up because of affairs and ppl getting too friendly with ppl they dont need 2 be.
Islam closes the door on all this, men dont need 2 mix with women they dont have a valid reason 2 and the same applies 2 the women, it makes things a lot easier and cuts out a lot of temptation that can lead 2 serious problems.

This is part of the problem. This is a ridiculous assumption that 'mingling' will automatically lead to affairs. For the overwhelming majority of people it does nothing of the sort. The whole idea of the rules on mingling and clothing provides excuses for a lack of self-control. When events like this rape occur the woman gets blamed for not dressing properly or mingling, when really it's the man who can't control himself.

 

[Yossarian]

Islam closes the door on all this, men dont need 2 mix with women they dont have a valid reason 2 and the same applies 2 the women, it makes things a lot easier and cuts out a lot of temptation that can lead 2 serious problems.

Aren't there going to be a whole lot of other temptations and problems arising if you turn every social gathering into a sausage-fest?

 

[fattboy]

This is part of the problem. This is a ridiculous assumption that 'mingling' will automatically lead to affairs. For the overwhelming majority of people it does nothing of the sort. The whole idea of the rules on mingling and clothing provides excuses for a lack of self-control. When events like this rape occur the woman gets blamed for not dressing properly or mingling, when really it's the man who can't control himself.

on ur first point, maybe, but the religion came 4 all ppl in all times at a particular point in time, so this required hard and fast rules that apply 2 everyone, not just the less pious ppl, and even an otherwise good person could be tempted, this cuts out that out.

i dont understand what u mean by an excuse 4 a lack of self control.
if the womans been with someone she shouldnt have been, from an Islamic perspective my understanding is she hasnt done everrything she can to have prevented it because shes gone against rules 4 her safety.
thats not in any way saying she deserves 2 be raped at all b4 someone jumps down my throat, if someone violated my sister id be looking 2 kill them wether she did all she could have 2 have prevented it or not,(not saying thats right) shes not a muslim, so obviously doesnt adhere 2 Islamic guidelines, but the sharias theres 2 protect ppl and acting contrary 2 it causes the problems.

and btw Mike, its unnessesary mingling thats avoided, doesnt mean u should run a mile from a woman when u see her, but u should have a valid reason 4 it, ie. some business, learning, seeing with a view 2 marriage, etc.

 

[nino_savatte]

This is slightly related, since it concerns the attitudes of major religions to women. IIRC, there are some Buddhists who would suggest that if a woman is raped, she did something in her former life to deserve it. This is quite an abhorrent notion imo.

Tbh, the only religions to actually regard women as equals are Sikhism and The Quakers.

 

[MikeMcc]

on ur first point, maybe, but the religion came 4 all ppl in all times at a particular point in time, so this required hard and fast rules that apply 2 everyone, not just the less pious ppl, and even an otherwise good person could be tempted, this cuts out that out.

i dont understand what u mean by an excuse 4 a lack of self control.
if the womans been with someone she shouldnt have been, from an Islamic perspective my understanding is she hasnt done everrything she can to have prevented it because shes gone against rules 4 her safety.
thats not in any way saying she deserves 2 be raped at all b4 someone jumps down my throat, if someone violated my sister id be looking 2 kill them wether she did all she could have 2 have prevented it or not, shes not a muslim, so obviously doesnt adhere 2 Islamic guidelines, but the sharias theres 2 protect ppl and acting contrary 2 it causes the problems.

So what happens when she's at work or shopping? It's up to men to have the self control. I'm an atheist, but I understand the responsibilities to treat everybody with respect irrespective of race, religion or sex. The rules against mingling and the dress codes are used as an excuse for appalling behaviour and under sharia law the penalties are draconian.

 

[CyberRose]

This is slightly related, since it concerns the attitudes of major religions to women. IIRC, there are some Buddhists who would suggest that if a woman is raped, she did something in her former life to deserve it. This is quite an abhorrent notion imo.

Tbh, the only religions to actually regard women as equals are Sikhism and The Quakers.

I think originally pretty much all religions considered women as inferiors because of the time the particular religion began. Women have been looked down on by men throughout history and that's been incorporated and consolidated by the various religions. The only reason religions are changing to become more accepting to women is because the more progressive societies around the world are changing their attitudes towards women (usually in places where women are free to express themselves). However, religion is still a useful tool to oppress women as fundamentalists will always hark back to the time when their religion was first conceived which also was a time when women were legally inferior. Like you say, it happens in pretty much every religion, but only usually in its most fundamental form and rarer in progressive societies

 

[fattboy]

its upon both 2 have self control, in the Qur'an Allah Tells us, both men and women 2 lower our gazes.
dress codes apply 2 both women and men in the sharia, as do the rules on unecessary mixing.

 

[fattboy]

I think originally pretty much all religions considered women as inferiors because of the time the particular religion began. Women have been looked down on by men throughout history and that's been incorporated and consolidated by the various religions. The only reason religions are changing to become more accepting to women is because the more progressive societies around the world are changing their attitudes towards women (usually in places where women are free to express themselves). However, religion is still a useful tool to oppress women as fundamentalists will always hark back to the time when their religion was first conceived which also was a time when women were legally inferior. Like you say, it happens in pretty much every religion, but only usually in its most fundamental form and rarer in progressive societies

never have women been regarded inferior in Islam, this is a christian concept, based on Eve leading Adam astray, absolutely no basis 4 it in Islam whatsoever.