[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

[Pickman's model]

It's not what you think , it's who you know?

It's not what Athos' contrarian post suggested

 

[winjer]

So they'd defend a neo-nazi, say, who was arrested for beating up a black person at fascist demo? Really?

No. Have you considered that perhaps you already know the answer as to why, you're just not willing to follow it through to its logical conclusions with regard to transphobes?

 

[winjer]

which position would at least have been consistent, and is, I think, the official LDMG stance

It is not.

So, I'm trying to establish the basis upon which winjer thinks they decided to provide support.

I do know the basis on which LDMG decided to provide support.

 

[andysays]

I would suggest that the best place to find the basis on which LDMG decide(d) to provide support would be the statement from LDMG themselves.

And luckily for all concerned it was linked to recently on this very thread...

 

[winjer]

I take it by the lack of advertising for an 'alternative' bookfair event this autumn that those who were shouting about putting something better on aren't actually doing it?

I guess it rather depends on on your view of "something better", but one example could be:

"We are a group of anarchist feminists who have come together to organise an anarchist feminist bookfair in Edinburgh in the summer of 2018."
Edinburgh Anarchist Feminist Bookfair/Edinburgh Anarchist Feminist Bookfair 2018

 

[Athos]

No. Have you considered that perhaps you already know the answer as to why, you're just not willing to follow it through to its logical conclusions with regard to transphobes?

Of course. But you're moving the goal posts. Now, support is predicated on people's politics, which is different to what you seemed to be saying earlier. And it makes the question quite different: whether or not someone whose politics justifies sex-based violent is someone anarchists should support.

 

[Athos]

It is not.

I think you're wrong about that; their stated principles include:

'To give unconditional support to anyone arrested or injured.'

 

[winjer]

'To give unconditional support to anyone arrested or injured.'

Indeed. And yet not "a neo-nazi, say, who was arrested for beating up a black person at fascist demo"

And as I said earlier: "LDMG didn't defend anybody on the basis of their affiliations, with most defendants this would be impossible to ascertain."

 

[winjer]

And it makes the question quite different: whether or not someone whose politics justifies sex-based violent is someone anarchists should support.

"sex-based violence"

 

[Athos]

"sex-based violence"

That's not really apposite to this discussion.

 

[Athos]

Indeed. And yet not "a neo-nazi, say, who was arrested for beating up a black person at fascist demo"

And as I said earlier: "LDMG didn't defend anybody on the basis of their affiliations, with most defendants this would be impossible to ascertain."

You are inconsistent.

 

[LDC]

I guess it rather depends on on your view of "something better", but one example could be:

"We are a group of anarchist feminists who have come together to organise an anarchist feminist bookfair in Edinburgh in the summer of 2018."
Edinburgh Anarchist Feminist Bookfair/Edinburgh Anarchist Feminist Bookfair 2018

In London I should have said.

 

[winjer]

I would suggest that the best place to find the basis on which LDMG decide(d) to provide support would be the statement from LDMG themselves.

Indeed.

However, as at the dissolution I had been involved for fourteen of its twenty-four years, I think it's fair to claim some knowledge of the context of both recent statements, and discussions which led to them.

 

[winjer]

That's not really apposite to this discussion.

It is entirely apposite.

You are inconsistent.

Really not.

Most defendants who benefited from LDMG's support were not affiliated to any organisation/philosophy/ideology, and seldom were they arrested or injured on that basis alone where they did have those affiliations. It was conflict with law enforcement which either brought them to our attention or had them contact us.

Fascists have their own legal support structures (e.g. Shieldwall). Transphobes can apply to Soros if they wish to start their own.

 

[Athos]

It is entirely apposite.

Really not.

Most defendants who benefited from LDMG's support were not affiliated to any organisation/philosophy/ideology, and seldom were they arrested or injured on that basis alone where they did have those affiliations. It was conflict with law enforcement which either brought them to our attention or had them contact us.

Fascists have their own legal support structures (e.g. Shieldwall). Transphobes can apply to Soros if they wish to start their own.

I'm sorry but I don't buy the idea that the support for this person did not take their politics into account. I think it was a bad decision.

 

[winjer]

I'm sorry but I don't buy the idea that the support for this person did not take their politics into account.

It matters not a bit that you don't buy it, it remains entirely true. We supported Tara in other cases in earlier years when we had no knowledge of her politics.

We're supporting people on trial this week for organising Scumoween in 2015, despite not even asking them if they actually like techno, for all we know about them so far they may prove to be neither hardcore nor even know the score.

We also, perhaps more directly contradicting your proposition, ironically supported one of the gender-critical 'credible identifying witnesses'* (who leafleted the bookfair, and not entirely coincidentally assisted the police with their inquiries leading to Tara's arrest at a Jack the Ripper Museum protest organised by Class War Women's caucus) with their case in 2017 after they were arrested at a Jack the Ripper Museum protest organised by Class War Women's caucus in 2016.

I highly doubt LDMG's successors/descendants would support that person in the future, but that wouldn't be because of their politics, it would be because of their actions.

* Because 'grass' is probably a slur these days.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

* Because 'grass' is probably a slur these days.

You don’t think women who are violently attacked should contact the police?
There’s times and places where ‘grass’ should carry weight, but not every situation, surely?

 

[winjer]

I don't accept either of the premises of your first question are applicable to the relevant incident, which to restate what should really by now be trite words, was a scuffle over a camera.

 

[Pickman's model]

You don’t think women who are violently attacked should contact the police?
There’s times and places where ‘grass’ should carry weight, but not every situation, surely?

I have lost count of the number of times I have seen women who have been "violently attacked" by the police. Would you consider it right and proper to advise those women to contact the police?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I don't accept either of the premises of your first question are applicable to the relevant incident, which to restate what should really by now be trite words, was a scuffle over a camera.

So if you propose a line should be drawn, where do you draw it?

(I’m playing devil’s advocate here so you don’t have to play if you don’t want to; I have enormous respect for your work)

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I have lost count of the number of times I have seen women who have been "violently attacked" by the police. Would you consider it right and proper to advise those women to contact the police?

Is that what we’re discussing?

 

[Pickman's model]

Is that what we’re discussing?

Right. So some women you might not suggest contact the police.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Right. So some women you might not suggest contact the police.

The bourgeois courts are a load of shit but I’m not convinced the left’s efforts are any better.
You’d be the first to point out eg Comrade Delta.

 

[Pickman's model]

The bourgeois courts are a load of shit but I’m not convinced the left’s efforts are any better.
You’d be the first to point out eg Comrade Delta.

So you're flexible on the take matters to cops thing.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

So you're flexible on the take matters to cops thing.

It’s not for me to decide, is it?

 

[Pickman's model]

It’s not for me to decide, is it?

at last

 

[winjer]

I propose you draw a line under playing devil's advocate.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

 

[Magnus McGinty]

If it’s difficult to discuss then I’m fine with that.

 

[winjer]

the GRA consultations have now been shelved anyway (maybe someone can confirm this?)

It finally started this week, will end just in time for No Book Fair 2018.

Reform of the Gender Recognition Act 2004