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Russell Brand: rape and sexual abuse allegations, grifting and general dodginess - discussion

LeytonCatLady said:
When I first moved to London at 16, I got to know people mostly by attending open mic nights. One of them was a 30-year-old bloke who clocked me as a young girl new in town and kept saying "Anyone gives you hassle, let me know and I'll sort them out." That annoyed me as I could look after myself, but didn't complain as he obviously had Good Intentions. But it got to the point where he'd confront any lads or blokes he saw me interacting with (up to and including "WHAT ARE YOU SAYING TO THIS GIRL?!") and I had to pull him up about that, explaining that I was/am a musician and he was interfering with my networking. I told him if I needed help I'd let him know, but until then please let me handle things myself. He got a bit huffy and said "Well I'm only trying to protect you!" I told him I didn't need protecting, I'd moved here from Birmingham under my own steam and I just wanted him to treat me the same as his male friends.

It got to the point where if I was in the pub with any other male friends or acquaintances or bandmates he didn't know and he was going to come later, I felt the need to text him in advance "If you turn up, I'm sitting with so-and-so." so he wouldn't get the wrong end of the stick and start having a go at them (something I shouldn't have had to do). That seemed to work, although even then he'd reply "Don't know them. Don't let them take the piss." He seemed obsessed with the idea that every male I talked to was up to something, and I found it really othering. Another annoying habit of his was when I showed him my lyrics and he would always assume they were about "a boy you like" when I wasn't interested in anybody, and they weren't even love songs! Even at 16, I was 5'7 with short spiky crazy coloured hair and a lip ring and blatantly not into commercial chart music, so I didn't get why he was ignoring that about me and trying to condense me into a "teenage girl" stereotype. I asked him if he'd assume that about a male songwriter, and got no satisfactory reply.

The last straw with this former friend was when my brother visited and he gave him a load of abuse in the pub, calling him pervy and other things I won't repeat here (I was 18 by then and my brother 16, although he looked older than he was and this idiot, as usual, jumped to conclusions). That got me in the shit with my family for a while because I was made to feel responsible for this idiot's bad behaviour. Yes, I accept I should have ended the friendship sooner but I thought I could change the way he viewed women (and because he was very PC generally and a Labour voter and stuff, I didn't think he was intentionally sexist, just coming across that way with his chivalry and patronising protectiveness).

Anyway, a few years after that I heard he was actually prosecuted for stalking an ex after she broke up with him and moved away. Apparently he found her new address and sent her threatening text messages, so I think that ties in with what you're saying about overprotective men seeing women as their property. The only person I needed protecting from was him!
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Aye, more often than not, over-protectiveness is just someone's more covert or "polite" way of being controlling.
 
LDC said:
I mean there's definitely things I've said and done 20 years ago that I would be very critical of now in terms of attitudes, speech and behaviour. It can sometimes just be a bit eye-opening to see it that starkly with the benefit of lots of time passing.
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I used to hang out with a bunch of wannabe-PUAs. I never got into the game myself, but found their behaviour and confidence fascinating. I found a sense of freedom in it, being a young lad from a very political family that would constantly question patriarchy and power structures. I was rebelling against my upbringing.
It was all new to me, looking at bums, objectifying women. It was very thrilling to push myself to say and do things I had never even thought of before. Something my family would have put a categorical stop to.
And yes, there was a lot of talk about 'how young would you go?'.

After a while I noticed my language changing. I realised that I had normalised behaviour that previously had given me a rush for its outrageousness. It became so obvious to me that I had become something and part of something that needed questioning, exposing, and tearing up.

I soon cut ties with all these people. With some of them I had to stay in touch with for professional reasons, and of course they all went down the rabbit hole. All of them, literally every single one of them, went the usual path: 9/11, chemtrails, moon, zionism, covid, holocaust denial, trump, extreme outspoken misogyny and anti-feminism, drag hour loons, Piers Corbyn hanger-ons, openly anti-establishment right wingers, etc etc. All these scenes are linked and feed off each other. They make their followers feel strong through unity. And yet they thrive on pretending to be marginalised. Women and 'enemies' deserve what they get as it is pay back time. 'We have been lied to and been made to feel ashamed of ourselves for too long, exploited by women, jews, pharma and Q. We are the real victims, and we are now fighting back.'

I feel dirty, looking back at myself, and to see where machoism leads to and where I could have ended up. But I'm also glad I've seen a bit of the inside.
 
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Serge Forward said:
Aye, more often than not, over-protectiveness is just someone's more covert or "polite" way of being controlling.
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yes - the key difference between "nice" and "good". good being respectiving entirely the person autonomy without busy body interferance. the person being "caring" thinks they are just being so "nice". it's incredibly controlling.
klang said:
I used to hang out with a bunch of wannabe-PUAs. I never got into the game myself, but found their behaviour and confidence fascinating. I found a sense of freedom in it, being a young lad from a very political family that would constantly question patriarchy and power structures. It was all new to me, looking at bums, objectifying women. It was very thrilling to push myself to say and do things I had never even thought of before. Something my family would have put a categorical stop to.

After a while I noticed my language changing. I realised that I had normalised behaviour that previously had given me a rush for its outrageousness. It became so obvious to me that I had become something and part of something that needed questioning, exposing, and tearing up.

I soon cut ties with all these people. With some of them I had to stay in touch with for professional reasons, and of course they all went down the rabbit hole. All of them, literally every single one of them, went the usual path: 9/11, chemtrails, moon, zionism, covid, holocaust denial, trump, extreme outspoken misogyny and anti-feminism, drag hour loons, Piers Corbyn hanger-ons, openly anti-establishment right wingers, etc etc. All these scenes are linked and feed off each other. They make their followers feel strong through unity. And yet they thrive on pretending to be marginalised. Women and 'enemies' deserve what they get as it is pay back time. 'We have been lied to and been made to feel ashamed of ourselves for too long, exploited by women, jews, pharma and Q. We are the real victims, and we are now fighting back.'

I feel dirty, looking back at myself, and to see where machoism leads to and where I could have ended up. But I'm also glad I've seen a bit of the inside.
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congrats for making it out. seriously.
 
Serge Forward said:
Aye, more often than not, over-protectiveness is just someone's more covert or "polite" way of being controlling.
Click to expand...
Yep. Normal protectiveness is fine - being there to help if the person needs it. But no need to go on about it 24/7! That dynamic is more like pet and owner than two equal friends (and I'm sure if I tried that with my cat, she'd be disgusted too).
 
klang said:
I used to hang out with a bunch of wannabe-PUAs. I never got into the game myself, but found their behaviour and confidence fascinating. I found a sense of freedom in it, being a young lad from a very political family that would constantly question patriarchy and power structures. It was all new to me, looking at bums, objectifying women. It was very thrilling to push myself to say and do things I had never even thought of before. Something my family would have put a categorical stop to.

After a while I noticed my language changing. I realised that I had normalised behaviour that previously had given me a rush for its outrageousness. It became so obvious to me that I had become something and part of something that needed questioning, exposing, and tearing up.

I soon cut ties with all these people. With some of them I had to stay in touch with for professional reasons, and of course they all went down the rabbit hole. All of them, literally every single one of them, went the usual path: 9/11, chemtrails, moon, zionism, covid, holocaust denial, trump, extreme outspoken misogyny and anti-feminism, drag hour loons, Piers Corbyn hanger-ons, openly anti-establishment right wingers, etc etc. All these scenes are linked and feed off each other. They make their followers feel strong through unity. And yet they thrive on pretending to be marginalised. Women and 'enemies' deserve what they get as it is pay back time. 'We have been lied to and been made to feel ashamed of ourselves for too long, exploited by women, jews, pharma and Q. We are the real victims, and we are now fighting back.'

I feel dirty, looking back at myself, and to see where machoism leads to and where I could have ended up. But I'm also glad I've seen a bit of the inside.
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That was an incredibly honest, brave post and you deserve kudos for realising the danger and getting out before it was too late.
 
LeytonCatLady said:
Yep. Normal protectiveness is fine - being there to help if the person needs it. But no need to go on about it 24/7! That dynamic is more like pet and owner than two equal friends (and I'm sure if I tried that with my cat, she'd be disgusted too).
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probably a lot of sexual shadow stuff gonig on. scared of his own impulses, projects them onto all other men and then feels like he has to intervene for the sake of all the women. it's an intervention onto himself, acted out.
 
BigMoaner said:
congrats for making it out. seriously.
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:D thanks.

I've never been one to fall for scenes, cliques, sects, or cults. All of this would have happened more than 20 years ago when I was young. Don't think I've ever been in danger to seriously be swallowed up by it all, I have too much love and respect for my fellow human beings and question power-inbalances too much. But then again, everybody would say and think this about themselves??

Was quite emotional, typing the above post....took a few attempts.
 
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BigMoaner said:
probably a lot of sexual shadow stuff gonig on. scared of his own impulses, projects them onto all other men and then feels like he has to intervene for the sake of all the women. it's an intervention onto himself, acted out.
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Bit like a partner constantly accusing you of wanting to cheat when you don't and it turns out they're the one fucking someone else.
 
klang said:
I used to hang out with a bunch of wannabe-PUAs. I never got into the game myself, but found their behaviour and confidence fascinating. I found a sense of freedom in it, being a young lad from a very political family that would constantly question patriarchy and power structures. It was all new to me, looking at bums, objectifying women. It was very thrilling to push myself to say and do things I had never even thought of before. Something my family would have put a categorical stop to.

After a while I noticed my language changing. I realised that I had normalised behaviour that previously had given me a rush for its outrageousness. It became so obvious to me that I had become something and part of something that needed questioning, exposing, and tearing up.

I soon cut ties with all these people. With some of them I had to stay in touch with for professional reasons, and of course they all went down the rabbit hole. All of them, literally every single one of them, went the usual path: 9/11, chemtrails, moon, zionism, covid, holocaust denial, trump, extreme outspoken misogyny and anti-feminism, drag hour loons, Piers Corbyn hanger-ons, openly anti-establishment right wingers, etc etc. All these scenes are linked and feed off each other. They make their followers feel strong through unity. And yet they thrive on pretending to be marginalised. Women and 'enemies' deserve what they get as it is pay back time. 'We have been lied to and been made to feel ashamed of ourselves for too long, exploited by women, jews, pharma and Q. We are the real victims, and we are now fighting back.'

I feel dirty, looking back at myself, and to see where machoism leads to and where I could have ended up. But I'm also glad I've seen a bit of the inside.
Click to expand...
LeytonCatLady beat me to it, but thank you for this very courageous, open and honest post. It can’t have been easy to write (still less easy knowing that others will read it). You clearly have admirable self-reflective and self-critical skills and have grown as a person since that period of your life.

And as BigMoaner said, bloody well done on having the good sense and wisdom to escape the net!

Posts like yours are IMHO one of the reasons why Urban is such a helpful and valuable resource.
 
scalyboy said:
LeytonCatLady beat me to it, but thank you for this very courageous, open and honest post. It can’t have been easy to write (still less easy knowing that others will read it). You clearly have admirable self-reflective and self-critical skills and have grown as a person since that period of your life.

And as BigMoaner said, bloody well done on having the good sense and wisdom to escape the net!

Posts like yours are IMHO one of the reasons why Urban is such a helpful and valuable resource.
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thank you
 
Definitely one reason he was able to hide in plain sight was because of the toxic culture he was a part of. He wasn't so different to others around him. Anyone caught up in that, like (a then 22 year old) Lily Allen here, would've looked like the odd one out or unprofessional if they'd objected to any of these "jokes".

Sorry if it was already posted, clip of Big Fat Quiz of the Year 2007 with Brand, Jonathan Ross and Noel Fielding:



eta and Jimmy Carr, gross
 
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Depressing to see the fb feed of a mate with fewer lefty snowflake contacts than me and most of my friends - mate is horrified and angry about Brand but a few people responding who are just still totally sold on this idea that women make up allegations for some kind of gain and 'why didn't they go to the police then?' Etc etc
 
Cloo said:
Depressing to see the fb feed of a mate with fewer lefty snowflake contacts than me and most of my friends - mate is horrified and angry about Brand but a few people responding who are just still totally sold on this idea that women make up allegations for some kind of gain and 'why didn't they go to the police then?' Etc etc
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It really is depressing and extremely ignorant. How many women would put themselves under the pressure and scrutiny for a lie???? Same thing with Andrew and Virginia Roberts/Giuffre and countless others. I find it very hard to trust/respect people who think like this to be honest. Thankfully no one in my feed does this.
 
I don't understand why this wasn't done earlier. It doesn't take a genius to recognise that there's a vast difference between teenagers within a couple of years of each other doing whatever they're doing, whether one or both of them is under whatever age is deemed the age of consent at the time, and someone who's just reached the age of consent having a relationship or fling with someone 10 or 20 or 30 years older.
 
Here's my version of 'was I right about brand', but is more about how your first instincts about a person are probably right. I unearthed the thread about brand's book, Revolution (lol). I haven't looked at that much of that thread, haven't even read all of my own posts. But what I did look at got me into wider thinking about things hiding in plain sight, how you process things that are there right in front of you, even if of course we didn't know about his actual abuses at the time of that thread. Anyway, bear with me, I'll get to it. :)

Firstly the politics, the least important bit of where we are at now. My own take was slebs becoming a focus for the left wasn't good. I flipped around a bit, but gave him a thumbs down.

On his behaviour, there was discussion of whether he was close to being a pick up artist, which I did find gruesome as did others of course, but there was also discussion about whether he had 'learned anything' in his new leftist persona (he'd obviously said a couple of things distancing himself from how he'd treated women in the past). Almost certainly in response to criticism from women and a complete sick joke as we have found out. Nothing else to say on the thread, but it got me into thinking how I processed my early impressions of brand.

At the time of his early fame (early 2000s?), I probably wasn't in brand's core audience, given that I'd just turned 40. I largely found him annoying and didn't seek out his 'comedy', though there was certainly a kind of bewilderment that you get when you see someone without filters. I genuinely found him annoying, wouldn't have sought him out, but probably didn't turn the programme off when he launched into whatever he was doing. Charismatic and tedious in the same breath, but most of all breaching the norms of how you behave and present yourself to others. And to finally get to it, all his stuff about shagging, descriptions of women, literally crawling all over them in public - well it is what it is, objectifying, at best laddish and patriarchal. And as it has tuned out, substantially worse that that. But how do you process all that/how did I process it 20 years ago? There was definitely an initial reaction, along the lines of 'hang on, this is sexist shit'. It really was there in plain sight. But somehow you wonder if you've got it right, how much irony was in play. Also, he was articulate and even pre-'Revolution', sounded progressive on some issues (again, hearty lol). And somehow, you end up if not giving a pass to someone who was a modern liberal version of a sexist 70s comedians, you at least create some cognitive dissonance. Anyway, even though I didn't see much of him early 2000s, there should have been enough to realise that was exactly what he was. And then a bit later on, after the Sachsgate/Georgina Baille thing (2008 I think,) how the fuck were any of us wondering whether brand could be an asset to the left in 2013 (the thread mentioned)?

That's not some long winded version of I/anyone should have known he was an abuser. However, I/we probably should have done more to call him out as a sexist shit 20 years ago. Also, to really get to my point, ,fuck me, beware of 'charismatic' people. They ain't all like brand and many find a way to do good things. But ultimately, the self obsessed and those who can't function as an equal, within a group or within a relationship *, well, that's when the warning lights should start to go on.

* That probably needs unpicking and clarifying, but I've already waffled on too long.
 
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