Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[ViolentPanda]

Ah, that old chestnut. 'local community leaders'. What elected office did these 'local community leaders' hold, or were they of the self-appointing variety?

They're always either self-appointed or self-nominated, IME.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So, instead of debating, let's just lump people into opposing categories. The them and us. That way it's easier to dismiss their uncomfortable arguments, isn't it. I find this kind of lazy dismissive post offensive.

Frankly, you're being somewhat lazy and dismissive yourself, by not realising that debate actual does exactly that - it places actors in binary opposition.
As for opposing categories making arguments easily dismissable, only if your argument is poor can't be dismissed, except by an idiot who doesn't understand the argument, or an ideologue who refuses to accept the basis of the argument. Either way, the idiot and the ideologue both reveal themselves for what they are if they dismiss a sound argument.

 

[Casually Red]

Why do brown people have to be ashamed and sorry because of the actions of scum they don't even know just because they are they same skin colour? Srs question?

who said they do ? As far as i can see its largely white people who run the state services that looked the other way and took no action.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

who said they do ? As far as i can see its largely white people who run the state services that looked the other way and took no action.

It is largely the people who run state services. Many or most white, others not. Their whiteness or not is also beside the point. Even here, it is easy to introduce race where it is not needed.

Disregard of state services for vulnerable people at the wrong end of society is the real story here, imo. And that story can and should be stated without reference to race.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Frankly, you're being somewhat lazy and dismissive yourself, by not realising that debate actual does exactly that - it places actors in binary opposition.
As for opposing categories making arguments easily dismissable, only if your argument is poor can't be dismissed, except by an idiot who doesn't understand the argument, or an ideologue who refuses to accept the basis of the argument. Either way, the idiot and the ideologue both reveal themselves for what they are if they dismiss a sound argument.

The statement I was critisizing is a blatant example of the sectarian mindset.

 

[Anudder Oik]

It is largely the people who run state services. Many or most white, others not. Their whiteness or not is also beside the point. Even here, it is easy to introduce race where it is not needed.

Disregard of state services for vulnerable people at the wrong end of society is the real story here, imo. And that story can and should be stated without reference to race.

I disagree, it is an important factor in the equation,especially if a fear of being labelled racist is the reason why they covered up. It would, if proven, show that political correctness is to blame for not nipping this rot in the bud at it's onset, and subsequently allowing it to go on and on for years destroying lives.

It is this perception of PC (white middle class bending over backwards for minorities) that is partly to blame for a broad section of the working class supporting rightwing political parties whilst feeling totally alienated from the left. (Don't ask that smarmy question, what is the left.)

 

[toggle]

does anyone that dosen't have a pre existing anti-pc agenda( the "i'll call a spade a spade and a black person a ******* if i want to" twonks) actually believe that that the police are so obsessed with not looking racist that this was the only or even major reason for not investigating rapes, especially considering the long term, widespread failures that have been highlighted in their handling of rape cases, eg, mistreatment of victims, or recording reported rapes as 'no crime'

reporting their failures as due to a fear of accusation of racism is about absolving them of responsibility, 'the left' the 'pc brigade' etc can be blamed for this fucking abysmal failure (and for their reputation for being a bunch of racist arseholes), rather than having to take a good fucking look as to why they might be called racist and why they failed to do their jobs properly

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I stand to be proven wrong, but the idea that in this country, the police and other authorities will look the other way and let you get away with more stuff if you're a member of an ethnic minority, well, that's not the police force I know.

 

[bluescreen]

It is largely the people who run state services. Many or most white, others not. Their whiteness or not is also beside the point. Even here, it is easy to introduce race where it is not needed.

Disregard of state services for vulnerable people at the wrong end of society is the real story here, imo. And that story can and should be stated without reference to race.

I agree that is the real story. And they aren't just white people, either. But if some stories are to be believed there is a side order of Mafia-like behaviour in some quarters (and no, nobody holds Italians in general responsible for the Mafia.) How much credence should we give to issues such as the fact that the 2003 and 2006 reports 'set out the links between child sexual exploitation and drugs, guns and criminality in the Borough'?
And this from the report:

8.16 One of the common threads running through child sexual exploitation across England has been the prominent role of taxi drivers in being directly linked to children who were abused. This was the case in Rotherham from a very early stage, when residential care home heads met in the nineties to share intelligence about taxis and other cars which picked up girls from outside their units. In the early 2000s some secondary school heads were reporting girls being picked up at lunchtime at the school gates and being taken away to provide oral sex to men in the lunch break.

Or this:

8.21 The Safeguarding Unit convened Strategy meetings from time to time on allegations involving taxi drivers. We read some of the most serious, from 2010, and were struck by the sense of exasperation, even hopelessness, recorded as the professionals in attendance tried to find ways of disrupting the suspected activity. Strategy meetings about one specific taxi firm had been held on four occasions in a seven week period. The minutes of one meeting record a total of ten girls and young women, three of whom were involved in three separate incidents of alleged attempted abduction by taxi drivers. The seven other girls had alleged that they were being sexually exploited in exchange for free taxi rides and goods. Two of the girls involved were looked after children. The Licensing Enforcement Officer took the step of formally writing to the Police following the incidents of alleged attempted abductions by drivers, complaining about the Police failure to act. In one incident, a driver accosted a 13-year-old girl. She refused to do what he asked and reported this to her parents who followed the taxi through the town, where they managed to identify the driver and dialled 999 for assistance. According to the Licensing Enforcement Officer, the Police did not attend until later and took no action. In his email to the Police he stated that 'a simple check would have revealed that the driver had been arrested a week previously in Bradford for a successful kidnapping of a lone female.' He concluded by acknowledging that police priorities were not the same as Licensing, but he 'should not be holding this together on his own'.
8.22 A further issue of safeguarding concerned those taxi firms which had a contract with the Council to transport some of the most vulnerable children to various resources within the authority. Some of the Council’s difficulty was that they did not always have the drivers' names when allegations were made. Nor did they have a list of the drivers who transported children as part of the Council contract.

or this

(The researcher Dr Heald in her 2003 report) described a particular case that was 'the final straw'. 18 In 2001, a young girl who had been repeatedly raped had tried to escape her perpetrators but was terrified of reprisals. They had allegedly put all the windows in at the parental home and broken both of her brother's legs 'to send a message'. At that point, the child agreed to make a complaint to the Police. The researcher took her to the police station office where she would be interviewed in advance in order to familiarise her with the place and the officer who would be conducting the interview. Whilst there, the girl received a text from the main perpetrator. He had with him her 11-year old sister. He said repeatedly to her 'your choice…'. The girl did not proceed with the complaint. She disengaged from the pilot and project and is quoted by the researcher as saying 'you can't protect me'. This incident raised questions about how the perpetrator knew where the young woman was and what she was doing.

There is more, much more in the report. And there is much more online naming particular councillors with taxi interests who profess ignorance of any problem, if you dig around.

 

[Lurdan]

Perhaps the Council and Police were held back from interfering with the activity of the taxi firms involved out of reasonable concern that it would be an unwarranted attack on small business, local recreational facilities and the free market.

 

[Casually Red]

It is largely the people who run state services. Many or most white, others not. Their whiteness or not is also beside the point. Even here, it is easy to introduce race where it is not needed.

Disregard of state services for vulnerable people at the wrong end of society is the real story here, imo. And that story can and should be stated without reference to race.

dont think it can really because one of the problems with these very people was the directives they were sending to their underlings identified as failings in the Jay report

The recent report by Professor Alexis Jay described how “by far the majority of perpetrators were described as ‘Asian’ by victims” but that “several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist” and “others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so”. Citing a 2013 House of Commons Home Affairs Committee report on “Child sexual exploitation and the response to grooming”, Jay concluded “People must be able to raise concerns without fear of being labelled racist.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/something-rotten-in-the-town-of-rotherham-9700500.html

you seem to be arguing for the same policy they implemented which kn turn seems to have contributed n part to rape and abuse on an industrial scale. Along with other issues certainly . But unlike other abuse and rape cases were the state manages to take some action at least this s a case were 1400 kids.at least...were attacked with nothing done . To me thats on a scale were the usual run of the mill incompetence and sexism smply doesnt cut t as an explanaton.

To make matters worse it also appears well known that the only tax driver in Rotherham these same people banned from transporting children was white. issues like that mean race and issues surrounding it will naturally enough linked to this issue . And taking it further another set of victims that very little is said or known about are the Pakistani girls who were attacked too. Who faced an even worse situation due to issues such as honour and future marriage prospects which are directly tied to race .

You couldnt seriously expect race not be mentioned in a case of black teenager shot by white cop . Same with this...if fear of racism accusations contributed to inaction... and fear of shame within an ethnic group led to non reporting race is an unavoidable issue in this case. Along with a host of others. Because certainly this would not have been permitted happen to bankers and stockbrokers daughters on such a scale within a small town were everyone appears to have been aware of it. Teachers apparently chasing these animals away from school gates for crissakes.

id agree theres also a real danger that some of those who looked away will try and hide behind the fear of racism issue to justify their criminal incompetence. But that in turn doesnt mean that wasnt a real issue either for others. Along with class which id agree is being shoved to the background.

But the way see it one of the major fall outs of this is community relations in places lie Rotherham . The race issue is well out of the bottle there front and centre and i dont see how it can be put back in unless its discussed head on. if people pretend theres no issues surrounding race in this case ..at least racial perceptions..it amounts to a head in the sand approach . in Rotherham today the 2 issues are inextricably linked in peoples minds. That cant conceivably be addressed without discussing both race and this case.

 

[toggle]

I stand to be proven wrong, but the idea that in this country, the police and other authorities will look the other way and let you get away with more stuff if you're a member of an ethnic minority, well, that's not the police force I know.

me either.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

dont think it can really because one of the problems with these very people was the directives they were sending to their underlings identified as failings in the Jay report

The recent report by Professor Alexis Jay described how “by far the majority of perpetrators were described as ‘Asian’ by victims” but that “several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist” and “others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so”. Citing a 2013 House of Commons Home Affairs Committee report on “Child sexual exploitation and the response to grooming”, Jay concluded “People must be able to raise concerns without fear of being labelled racist.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/something-rotten-in-the-town-of-rotherham-9700500.html

you seem to be arguing for the same policy they implemented which kn turn seems to have contributed n part to rape and abuse on an industrial scale. Along with other issues certainly . But unlike other abuse and rape cases were the state manages to take some action at least this s a case were 1400 kids.at least...were attacked with nothing done . To me thats on a scale were the usual run of the mill incompetence and sexism smply doesnt cut t as an explanaton.

To make matters worse it also appears well known that the only tax driver in Rotherham these same people banned from transporting children was white. issues like that mean race and issues surrounding it will naturally enough linked to this issue . And taking it further another set of victims that very little is said or known about are the Pakistani girls who were attacked too. Who faced an even worse situation due to issues such as honour and future marriage prospects which are directly tied to race .

You couldnt seriously expect race not be mentioned in a case of black teenager shot by white cop . Same with this...if fear of racism accusations contributed to inaction... and fear of shame within an ethnic group led to non reporting race is an unavoidable issue in this case. Along with a host of others. Because certainly this would not have been permitted happen to bankers and stockbrokers daughters on such a scale within a small town were everyone appears to have been aware of it. Teachers apparently chasing these animals away from school gates for crissakes.

id agree theres also a real danger that some of those who looked away will try and hide behind the fear of racism issue to justify their criminal incompetence. But that in turn doesnt mean that wasnt a real issue either for others. Along with class which id agree is being shoved to the background.

But the way see it one of the major fall outs of this is community relations in places lie Rotherham . The race issue is well out of the bottle there front and centre and i dont see how it can be put back in unless its discussed head on. if people pretend theres no issues surrounding race in this case ..at least racial perceptions..it amounts to a head in the sand approach . in Rotherham today the 2 issues are inextricably linked in peoples minds. That cant conceivably be addressed without discussing both race and this case.

I'm certainly not saying 'don't mention race' where it is relevant. But sometimes it can obscure what is going on and this may well be the case here. Clearly the prejudices of the police and authorities go far beyond race - and they will no doubt have been prejudiced against these girls as poor trash.

But where is race relevant here? I don't see either the race of the girls or of the people in authority who failed to do their jobs as relevant. I don't find the idea that 'pc' concerns prevented action here at all credible - and without some firm evidence that such concerns were important, I'm going to assume that they were nothing to do with this. Not that you've done this (I was nitpicking a bit with you, tbf), but the idea that there was a fear to confront these men because of their Pakistani origin plays into the hands of the racist morons who've popped up on this thread. Far more likely are everyday incompetence, lack of giving a shit about poor girls, and corruption.

I do take your point that there are confused people out there who tie themselves up in knots because they don't really understand what being racist is, and so have no clear means of judging whether they themselves are being racist or not. But I'm also rather suspicious of the arse-covering going on here.

 

[likesfish]

Well the police dont care about individual "ethnics"
A complicated investigation that may involve a riot and a lot of bad press about racism is another matter best avoided.

 

[bmd]

I disagree, it is an important factor in the equation,especially if a fear of being labelled racist is the reason why they covered up. It would, if proven, show that political correctness is to blame for not nipping this rot in the bud at it's onset, and subsequently allowing it to go on and on for years destroying lives.

It is this perception of PC (white middle class bending over backwards for minorities) that is partly to blame for a broad section of the working class supporting rightwing political parties whilst feeling totally alienated from the left. (Don't ask that smarmy question, what is the left.)

If you read the report it says that this is a side issue. It's just that some people have a poorly hidden agenda regarding it and given half a chance they bang the PC gorn mad drum.

 

[Casually Red]

I'm certainly not saying 'don't mention race' where it is relevant. But sometimes it can obscure what is going on and this may well be the case here. Clearly the prejudices of the police and authorities go far beyond race - and they will no doubt have been prejudiced against these girls as poor trash.

But where is race relevant here? I don't see either the race of the girls or of the people in authority who failed to do their jobs as relevant. I don't find the idea that 'pc' concerns prevented action here at all credible - and without some firm evidence that such concerns were important, I'm going to assume that they were nothing to do with this. Not that you've done this (I was nitpicking a bit with you, tbf), but the idea that there was a fear to confront these men because of their Pakistani origin plays into the hands of the racist morons who've popped up on this thread. Far more likely are everyday incompetence, lack of giving a shit about poor girls, and corruption.

the corruption angle was one i wasnt aware of . But it maes sense now especially concerning the fear these scum instilled . That interview i spoke of earlier alluded to some of these chldren telling their parents if they didnt go with these men its the family whod suffer . Obvously a real fear of serious violence at play too .

if it comes up on youtube ill post it up..it handled the race issue pretty sensibly. And both participants were themselves Asian .

 

[toggle]

Well the police dont care about individual "ethnics"
A complicated investigation that may involve a riot and a lot of bad press about racism is another matter best avoided.

so they hid their head in the sand, until a problem became a huge problem that would require a huge investigation with potential accusations of racism. their failure to act earlier cannot be excused as a fear of a complicated investigation.

could the alternative not be that they couldn't give enough of a crap to investigate earlier and by the time it became clear there were a lot of complaints and a lot of girls involved, there was also considerable arse covering going on as to why they hadn't investigated earlier. culminating in claims they were too scared to bother all those brown people

 

[Anudder Oik]

does anyone that dosen't have a pre existing anti-pc agenda( the "i'll call a spade a spade and a black person a ******* if i want to" twonks) actually believe that that the police are so obsessed with not looking racist that this was the only or even major reason for not investigating rapes, especially considering the long term, widespread failures that have been highlighted in their handling of rape cases, eg, mistreatment of victims, or recording reported rapes as 'no crime'

reporting their failures as due to a fear of accusation of racism is about absolving them of responsibility, 'the left' the 'pc brigade' etc can be blamed for this fucking abysmal failure (and for their reputation for being a bunch of racist arseholes), rather than having to take a good fucking look as to why they might be called racist and why they failed to do their jobs properly

Casually Red has just posted evidence (from the report) that fear of being branded racist is a major factor in the corruption of events in this case. That is a fear cultivated by Political correctness. However, you believe anybody who has an anti PC agenda is somehow a racist, you actually say this. You must feel some gratification from this case knowing that the people who failed the victims, however rotten they are, have at least kept their anti racist credentials intact.

 

[toggle]

no, he's provided reports of people claiming that they were too scared of being branded racist. this is a long way from proving their actual motivation.

that there are a lot of people jumping up and down ready to spout anti-pc shite in this case does show how effective an excuse this is. far better to blame the pc brigade than admit that their own miserable failure to do their jobs properly led to a lot of girls being repeatedly raped

 

[bmd]

Casually Red has just posted evidence (from the report) that fear of being branded racist is a major factor in the corruption of events in this case. That is a fear cultivated by Political correctness. However, you believe anybody who has an anti PC agenda is somehow a racist, you actually say this. You must feel some gratification from this case knowing that the people who failed the victims, however rotten they are, have at least kept their anti racist credentials intact.

Where does it say in the report that it was a major factor? You clearly have an agenda here. Let me guess, those people get away with all sorts that white people wouldn't. Just say it, grow a pair and say it.

 

[Treacle Toes]

That is a fear cultivated by Political correctness....

The fear of being branded a racist is not brought about by catchy terms like political correctness... If the fear of being branded a racist exists it's usually because 1) people acknowledge racism exists and/or 2) They are about to say something dodgey...'I'm not racist but....'

 

[Anudder Oik]

Well the police dont care about individual "ethnics"
A complicated investigation that may involve a riot and a lot of bad press about racism is another matter best avoided.

Somewhere on this thread there was info about community leaders warning the police not to focus on these gangs for the sake of community cohesion. (may have the wording wrong but something to that effect). In less generous circles this could be construed as a threat.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Where does it say in the report that it was a major factor? You clearly have an agenda here. Let me guess, those people get away with all sorts that white people wouldn't. Just say it, grow a pair and say it.

Well how else did it go on for so long? The only other motive I can think of would be corruption, ie paid to shut up, but that hasn't come out. Don't jump the gun.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Somewhere on this thread there was info about community leaders warning the police not to focus on these gangs for the sake of community cohesion. (may have the wording wrong but something to that effect). In less generous circles this could be construed as a threat.

No, I think that is about what was said. I'd like to have some names here. Just one name of one of the 'community leaders' would do, who they met, when, and what they said.

 

[Treacle Toes]

People knew this was happening...it didn't matter who was doing it, their jobs were to report it and protect vulnerable children, they let it happen, they didn't do their jobs...the ethnicity of the perpetrators is not and should never have been an issue. Interesting that it is now....because heads are rolling and well people want to cover their arses!

 

[toggle]

i mean ffs,

as excuses go. it's a doozy. if you have to make them up, at least go for the big ones


all those black and brown people, expecting to be treated with respect and not be called names and denied access to services or abused and the white peopole who aggree that black and brown people should be treated as actual people, it's all their fault that I let hundreds of girls be raped.

 

[bmd]

Somewhere on this thread there was info about community leaders warning the police not to focus on these gangs for the sake of community cohesion. (may have the wording wrong but something to that effect). In less generous circles this could be construed as a threat.

Jesus fucking Christ, stop standing behind other peoples words and say your own. You are dying for thus to be about 'those people' getting away with this because of their race. They were criminals and paedophiles who found a way to circumvent the law, social services, their own community and so on. And yet here you are, banging on about PC gorn mad.

 

[toggle]

Well how else did it go on for so long? The only other motive I can think of would be corruption, ie paid to shut up, but that hasn't come out. Don't jump the gun.

your inability to think of alternatives dosen't seem to be such a problem to people who haven't already made their minds up to accept the authorities passing the buck

so they hid their head in the sand, until a problem became a huge problem that would require a huge investigation with potential accusations of racism. their failure to act earlier cannot be excused as a fear of a complicated investigation.

could the alternative not be that they couldn't give enough of a crap to investigate earlier and by the time it became clear there were a lot of complaints and a lot of girls involved, there was also considerable arse covering going on as to why they hadn't investigated earlier. culminating in claims they were too scared to bother all those brown people

 

[toggle]

Somewhere on this thread there was info about community leaders warning the police not to focus on these gangs for the sake of community cohesion. (may have the wording wrong but something to that effect). In less generous circles this could be construed as a threat.

an unsubstantiated allegation made by someone who has failed to do their job, seeking to find someone else to blame. this is not credible evidence

 

[bmd]

Well how else did it go on for so long? The only other motive I can think of would be corruption, ie paid to shut up, but that hasn't come out. Don't jump the gun.

Clearly because every single person who knew about this was so politically correct that they couldn't face the idea of mentioning criminal gangs prostituting 1400 children out to paedophiles. That's obviously what happened.