Rishi Sunak’s time is up!

[HoratioCuthbert]

It’s quite a focus of a particular strata of society to see entry into higher education as being a metric of “success”. It’s worth asking who defined that, why and how? Does life end at 21 when the degree is over? In which case, what happens next to all that students? Are we seeing a similar increase in ethnic minority working class presence in positions of power in businesses, politics, academic institutions, news institutions, medical establishments and institutions of capital? Not just as (well paid) workers, but those making material decisions over the lives of others? I’ll save you time: not so much. Institutional power remains in the hands of wealthy families passing down that power through generations. If anything, it is concentrating.

I couldn't sleep from 4am so was reading about what happens to minorities in the world of work off the back of this thread. This weird Tory think tank that was getting upset about people taking the knee commissioned a study that said the complete opposite of what you and the rest of the internet is saying. I didn't even look at their methodology or whatever, called, they were happy to scream their bias from the rooftops. THE WORRYING TREND IN PEOPLE TAKING THE KNEE! Kemi Badenoch and Strathspey was reportedly delighted with the outcome of the research.

I think the graph you shared that kicked off this mini-education discussion might need a little more examination, tbh. The weasel words there are "state schools". For HE stats like this the Universities, particularly the most exclusive ones for their own purposes, like to shine the best light on "state school" stats. They love nothing better than kids who have been put through privileged, private education from prep to GCSE who then sit their A levels at a state (often selective) school. They're classed as "state school" kids because of that L3 experience. After that they also love the state grammar school kids who make up way above their 5% national figure in the most exclusive HE intakes.

So we have to be wary of figures that show "state school" classification without any qualification and without any indication of socio-economic background. Even the HE stats that do attempt to factor in socio-economic data (deprivation) do so on the basis of mean figures for geographic units, not the kids themselves.

I think this chat started by looking at how Sunak's moderately wealthy, middle class parents had bought him a privileged education and it seems that such an ability and determination applies to many in immigrant demographics. This shouldn't really be a surprise as international immigrants do always represent sub-sets of their sending populations; by definition an immigrant must have the determination to seek a better life, be open-minded to making that in a distant place, have the ambition and guts to break from what they know and, in many cases, the economic where-with-all to make the move.

None of which changes my view that private schools and grammar schools should be banned.

The last paragraph there is something I thought was probably a factor, thanks for taking the time to outline all this at 0830 in the morning.

 

[teqniq]

 

[bimble]

international immigrants do always represent sub-sets of their sending populations; by definition an immigrant must have the determination to seek a better life, be open-minded to making that in a distant place, have the ambition and guts to break from what they know and, in many cases, the economic where-with-all to make the move.

Not really. I mean not always anyway, For instance my dad. Happened to be here in uk (allowed to travel on a state scholarship from communist Czech to study music in London) when Russia sent tanks into his home country: He didn’t have to be a dazzling ambitious visionary to decide to try for refugee status instead of travelling home to that. Sometimes stuff just happens. There’s a lot of push factors in emigration not just pull. And sunak and his home sec are dead keen on shutting the gate.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Edie "the lesson is don't be at the bottom" but your hospital would be on it's knees if the auxiliaries, porters, cleaners etc rose up from their lowly positions tomorrow. Maybe many of us just aspire to be socially useful, and to be paid what we are worth. I know that's where I am at, anyway.

 

[ska invita]

My insight into talking about general characteristics of ethnic migrant group X Y or Z is that whatever generalisations you make about the group are very little to do with their ethnicity and a lot more to do with the fact that they are migrants.

What I mean by that is it takes a very particular kind of person to leave their family, friends, native tongue... home... and move to another country, most often one where they will also face prejudice on top of having to start from scratch.

The experience of migrating requires such a hard effort, either the migrant was dynamic and diligent in the first place, or soon becomes that way to survive.

How they then act in the new country they live in then becomes very different from the average. On average they keep their head down politically, small c conservative, not feeling it is their role to rock the boat, and they work hard <because circumstances dictate it, and because they haven't given up their home to live a shit life.

This 'dynamic' attitude then gets passed down to their kids. By generation #4 Id say the 'trauma' of migrant experience is basically not there as much and that generation will have much more similiar attitudes and experiences as anyone else born in that country.

The notion of people being lazy in the UK is bullshit. It is now perfectly possible to work yourself into an early grave in the UK and still live in poverty, going to food banks etc. The concept of Working Poor defines modern Britain. The system is designed that way.

The 'american dream' economics that was there post war up to the late 70s in the UK and the USA has utterly changed - work no longer pays in the way it did then - 40 years of neoliberalism and destruction of trade unionism have seen to that.

 

[brogdale]

Not really. I mean not always anyway, For instance my dad. Happened to be here in uk (allowed to travel on a state scholarship from communist Czech to study music in London) when Russia sent tanks into his home country: He didn’t have to be a dazzling ambitious visionary to decide to try for refugee status instead of travelling home to that. Sometimes stuff just happens. There’s a lot of push factors in emigration not just pull. And sunak and his home sec are dead keen on shutting the gate.

Yes, a very good point. I should have made clear that I was not referring to refugees or those compelled to migrate.

 

[rubbershoes]

I think this chat started by looking at how Sunak's moderately wealthy, middle class parents had bought him a privileged education and it seems that such an ability and determination applies to many in immigrant demographics. This shouldn't really be a surprise as international immigrants do always represent sub-sets of their sending populations; by definition an immigrant must have the determination to seek a better life, be open-minded to making that in a distant place, have the ambition and guts to break from what they know and, in many cases, the economic where-with-all to make the move.

None of which changes my view that private schools and grammar schools should be banned.

It wasn't just the family money that got him in. He had to pass the exam too. Winchester has its own entrance exam separate from the common entrance exam for other public schools.

Of course, if Sunak hadn't passed the exam, he would have gone to a different public school with less stringent academic requirements.

 

[brogdale]

I'm also conscious that I'm pontificating here as white bloke who's only ever moved 70 miles away from 'home'.

That said, having worked in high % minority schools, I have spoken with many "immigrant" parents who expressed fairly basic but completely understandable aspirations for their kids prospects/status and often that was couched in terms of not wanting them to face the discrimination that they themselves had experienced.

 

[brogdale]

It wasn't just the family money that got him in. He had to pass the exam too. Winchester has its own entrance exam separate from the common entrance exam for other public schools.

Of course, if Sunak hadn't passed the exam, he would have gone to a different public school with less stringent academic requirements.

Yes, but the tutoring required for those sorts of entrance exams also take considerable £.

 

[rubbershoes]

Yes, but the tutoring required for those sorts of entrance exams also take considerable £.

Most entrants will have been at prep schools before taking the entrance exam. They're less expensive than public schools but still beyond the reach of most.

 

[brogdale]

Meanwhile...this is just how much the vermin care about the schools that our kids go to.

 

[bimble]

Another factor is that these elite education places require you to do an interview and being able to present yourself so as to impress those at the other side of the wood panelled room is an entirely separate set of skills from having the right grades on your exams. In this class obsessed society we have here I think being child of immigrants can actually help with that, makes you less easily dismissed as the wrong kind of person because less easy to place in that hierarchy.

 

[_Russ_]

A big thing was made of stopping the Tier 1 investors visa (golden passport), but its bollox, we still have a start - up business visa which is a simple alternative way for very rich folk to get into the country in exchange for some dosh

 

[Lurdan]

Yes, a very good point. I should have made clear that I was not referring to refugees or those compelled to migrate.

I'm sorry but that isn't entirely adequate either. The origins of some of the ethnic minority communities in the UK were merchant seamen who were neither refugees nor 'economic migrants' (I use the phrase although I don't really think it can be 'reclaimed' from cunts). And obviously there is the issue of slavery both 'old school', and its consequences ever since, and 'modern'.

 

[teuchter]

Obviously there are loads of caveats to be applied to it but some aspects of that graph posted by Edie were quite surprising to me.

Got me looking at Oxbridge entry stats, which looked a bit different from what I might have expected too. Yes I know, numbers probably chosen rather selectively by Oxford university themselves so again loads of caveats (mainly, why the focus on AAA students rather than all students?).

Ethnicity | University of Oxford

This page sets out what is known about the ethnicity of UK-domiciled applicants to Oxford. 5% of UK-domiciled applicants (2,148 students between 2020 and 2022) choose not to declare their ethnicity in their UCAS application. It is therefore not possible to make any statements in relation to...

www.ox.ac.uk

 

[Edie]

Edie "the lesson is don't be at the bottom" but your hospital would be on it's knees if the auxiliaries, porters, cleaners etc rose up from their lowly positions tomorrow. Maybe many of us just aspire to be socially useful, and to be paid what we are worth. I know that's where I am at, anyway.

Absolutely agree and support that. But the reality is you will work physically harder and longer for less. Thems the facts.

 

[MrCurry]

For me the most important question about Sunak is what’s his motivation? I mean why is he involved in politics?

Are we to believe that someone who up until 2015 had successfully pursued self-enrichment was suddenly overcome with a desire for self-sacrificing public service? Or was there some underlying aim to continue increasing his wealth in ways that only political power could facilitate?

 

[MickiQ]

We got Gillian Keegan who I've never heard of but the bad news is she's a fucking Tory.

Mrs Q hasn't heard of her either, she's just glad that it's not Gove who she hates with a passion perhaps this new woman will stir the same emotions in time.

 

[Edie]

Obviously there are loads of caveats to be applied to it but some aspects of that graph posted by Edie were quite surprising to me.

Got me looking at Oxbridge entry stats, which looked a bit different from what I might have expected too. Yes I know, numbers probably chosen rather selectively by Oxford university themselves so again loads of caveats (mainly, why the focus on AAA students rather than all students?).

View attachment 348928


View attachment 348930

Ethnicity | University of Oxford

This page sets out what is known about the ethnicity of UK-domiciled applicants to Oxford. 5% of UK-domiciled applicants (2,148 students between 2020 and 2022) choose not to declare their ethnicity in their UCAS application. It is therefore not possible to make any statements in relation to...

www.ox.ac.uk

Enormously encouraging to see, and a fantastic achievement by BME students, plus proof that widening access at Oxford and HE generally is significantly changing things. We should celebrate this.

 

[bimble]

why the focus on AAA students rather than all students?

not sure what to make of those statistics but i think the AAA is what's generally required for oxford university. Curiously my best googling just failed to find out whether Boris Johnson got those grades or not, doesn't really matter but seems to be a state secret.

 

[killer b]

Mrs Q hasn't heard of her either, she's just glad that it's not Gove who she hates with a passion perhaps this new woman will stir the same emotions in time.

unlikely she'll be there long enough to make an impression of any sort if current turnover is anything to go by

 

[Edie]

It’s quite a focus of a particular strata of society to see entry into higher education as being a metric of “success”. It’s worth asking who defined that metric, why and how did they convince people to place their focus on it? Does life actually end at 21 when their degree is over? No. So what happens next to all those students? Are we seeing a similar increase in ethnic minority working class presence in positions of power in businesses, politics, academic institutions, news institutions, medical establishments and institutions of capital? Not just as (well paid) workers, but those making material decisions over the lives of others? I’ll save you time: not so much. Institutional power remains in the hands of wealthy families passing down that power through generations. If anything, it is concentrating.

I think it’s changing. There’s plenty of BME people in positions of power in the media that I see. I can’t speak for other industries, but medicine has massively changed. Go to any UK Med school or look at the Junior Docs on the wards now, and BME UK students plus IMG are a really significant number (far far exceeding the population %). They haven’t quite got to senior level yet in bulk- but give it a decade. In the north as well there are significant numbers of working class medical students and junior doctors- Leeds medical school is full of them, inc plenty British Pakistani students which reflects the local demographic, and hooray for that.

This change has occurred during the last decade (maybe 10-15 years) largely during Conservative government but this is also a left agenda issue for sure. The world is changing, and in this regard for the better.

 

[bimble]

brexit will be good for these diversity stats too, as there'll be the same amount of immigrants (making families and careers in the UK) but fewer of them will define themselves as 'white'. I like this fact.

 

[Pickman's model]

You surely meant to post this one in the management speak thread

If anyone else had posted that you'd assume sarcasm

 

[kabbes]

I think it’s changing. There’s plenty of BME people in positions of power in the media that I see. I can’t speak for other industries, but medicine has massively changed. Go to any UK Med school or look at the Junior Docs on the wards now, and BME UK students plus IMG are a really significant number (far far exceeding the population %). They haven’t quite got to senior level yet in bulk- but give it a decade. In the north as well there are significant numbers of working class medical students and junior doctors- Leeds medical school is full of them, inc plenty British Pakistani students which reflects the local demographic, and hooray for that.

This change has occurred during the last decade (maybe 10-15 years) largely during Conservative government but this is also a left agenda issue for sure. The world is changing, and in this regard for the better.

I think you’re mistaking visibility for power. Who owns news media? Who owns TV stations? Who decides which programs get made? Who decides which political agenda are acceptable? Having an Asian front man reporting on the news is not the same thing.

Same for the medical establishment. Who decides on where funding is spent? Who decides on qualifications? Who decides on what constitutes the evidence pool? Not junior doctors.

 

[ska invita]

For me the most important question about Sunak is what’s his motivation? I mean why is he involved in politics?

Are we to believe that someone who up until 2015 had successfully pursued self-enrichment was suddenly overcome with a desire for self-sacrificing public service? Or was there some underlying aim to continue increasing his wealth in ways that only political power could facilitate?

in between counting their money they probably all delude themselves with the burden of Noblesse oblige - Wikipedia

 

[ska invita]

I think it’s changing. There’s plenty of BME people in positions of power in the media that I see. I can’t speak for other industries, but medicine has massively changed. Go to any UK Med school or look at the Junior Docs on the wards now, and BME UK students plus IMG are a really significant number (far far exceeding the population %). They haven’t quite got to senior level yet in bulk- but give it a decade.

its been like that since post-war / windrush no?

 

[brogdale]

Obviously there are loads of caveats to be applied to it but some aspects of that graph posted by Edie were quite surprising to me.

Got me looking at Oxbridge entry stats, which looked a bit different from what I might have expected too. Yes I know, numbers probably chosen rather selectively by Oxford university themselves so again loads of caveats (mainly, why the focus on AAA students rather than all students?).

View attachment 348928


View attachment 348930

Ethnicity | University of Oxford

This page sets out what is known about the ethnicity of UK-domiciled applicants to Oxford. 5% of UK-domiciled applicants (2,148 students between 2020 and 2022) choose not to declare their ethnicity in their UCAS application. It is therefore not possible to make any statements in relation to...

www.ox.ac.uk

Yes, interesting stuff, but as I said earlier, we have to be very careful with gloss of social mobility/inclusion that these hyper-exclusive institutions put on their stats. This is a surprisingly good piece of investigative journalism from Varsity that explores, in some depth, the ways in which "state school" data is manipulated to show their admissions policies in the best light. I accept that it doesn't explicitly tackle the question of ethnicity of student, but we can safely assume that a very significant % of those triple A students have experienced some form of educational privilege whatever their ethnicity.

 

[maomao]

Yes, interesting stuff, but as I said earlier, we have to be very careful with gloss of social mobility/inclusion that these hyper-exclusive institutions put on their stats. This is a surprisingly good piece of investigative journalism from Varsity that explores, in some depth, the ways in which "state school" data is manipulated to show their admissions policies in the best light. I accept that it doesn't explicitly tackle the question of ethnicity of student, but we can safely assume that a very significant % of those triple A students have experienced some form of educational privilege whatever their ethnicity.

Some of them will have just been to exam factory academies. Three As at A-level isn't as special as it used to be.

 

[Cid]

its been like that since post-war / windrush no?

Also:

White NHS nurses twice as likely as black and Asian colleagues to be promoted – study

Research by Royal College of Nursing suggests racism is ‘endemic’ in health and care

www.theguardian.com