riots in paris banlieu...

[kyser_soze]

so you're seriously trying to tell me that there are hundreds of tv crews scattered over every little town in france?

Personally I don't know, but I'd be surprised is at least half of them hadn't had a CNN, MSNBC, CBSN, Al-J, BBCN24 or stringer/freelancer crew drive thorugh in the search of an alternative angle.

There are some real sense of humour failures on this thread...

 

[In Bloom]

That's one way of looking at it, from a specific point of view. It's not necessarily the truth, but within it's own logic it could be seen as truthful.

I'm not saying that's all there is to it, just pointing out that there is a not too subtle difference between the two positions.

 

[tobyjug]

rural backwaters in france tend to be quite nice actually.

.

Very nice in my experience and not the havens of racism some here would have us believe.
The bar I use in Brittany sponsors various youth sports teams taking them to and fro in a mini bus. From what I have seen nearly half of the various team members are ethnic minority.
There are also several ethnic minority customers in the bar and they get the same handshake/kissing greetings as anyone else.

 

[poster342002]

Who said they do? Some have said that the riots are a manifestation of class struggle, but that's a different kettle of fish alltogether.

Class struggle would manifest as something more positive than a random trashing of the neighbourhood, surely?

Political revolutions in many countries start off with this sort of riot, but it then rapidly moves on to a general revolt against the regime (I mentioned the Romanian revolt against Ceaucescu as an example earlier on). In the west, however, that just doesn't seem to happen. It just takes the form of smashing up shops, cars, the general neighbourhood, random beatings and a ruck with the police.

 

[In Bloom]

Class struggle would manifest as something more positive than a random trashing of the neighbourhood, surely?

Why should it? Class struggle is merely the result of conflicting material interests between the working class and the ruling class.

 

[where to]

There are some real sense of humour failures on this thread...

feelings are running high.... for some of us this is a subject very close to our hearts.

peace.

 

[where to]

aside from the sarkozy thing (and TBH it's at the point now where that could as easily be an adopted reason rather than actual reason)

yeah i think this morphing of general feelings, the development of the political aspect is quite an accurate way of looking at it.

days 1-3 were about the kids
days 3-5/6 were about the kids and a feeling of fuck this, and feelings that came from the political silence the cover up of the deaths details and that
days 6 onwards are shit if we keep this up we can bring the cunt down and we must

this self-realisation is what makes it so unpredictable and frankly, so exciting. hate to say it, but it is exciting.

paris went quiet last night and i think this was partly a responce to the man who was killed. nobody wants to be part of the same struggle as that one. the rest of the country seems to have seen much worsening troubles, and i'd imagine that if that continues in the next few days, then paris will re-egnite again, once the old man has been "forgotten"

if the rest of the country starts to calm though, then it might be over by the end of the week.

 

[kyser_soze]

unpredictable and frankly, so exciting. hate to say it, but it is exciting

I arrived in LA 3 days before the Rodney King riots kicked off and got out of the city on one of the last flights out of LAX...I know exactly what you mean when you say 'exiciting' in this context.

As the old curse goes:

'May you be born in interesting times'

 

[where to]

i think its no coincidence that the suicide rate in sarejevo shot up immediately after the war finished. the adrenalin had stopped and they were faced with starting again, in a city of rubble and a painful memory around every corner. too much to take.

 

[perplexis]

I hear that some of the kids are torching cars just so that they can see their area on national TV.

Yup.
My brother's working in Paris at the moment and he told me the exact same thing last night he quoted me from a TV interview (I'll translate and paraphrase)
"Yeah, we've been seeing all these other manors on the Tv and we want to be represented. We want people to see us too..."

Whatever the underlying reasons for the riots these people are fucking wankers.
Anyone who thinks these riots are now political protests needs to check themselves for brain-leakage very carefully.
At the outset there was apparently pretty good motivation for mobilisation but now it seems to be a lot like bored kids entertaining themselves...

 

[Sue]

Sarkozy's going to have to go. Funny, because I'm sure Chirac would love to get rid off him but he's unlikely to resign and Chirac can't sack him as it'd make him look like he's giving in. God knows what's going to happen.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Are you so earnest you can't recognise satire when you see it?

as lea said, your satire wasn't really realistic. try to improve a bit, next time.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

i think its no coincidence that the suicide rate in sarejevo shot up immediately after the war finished. the adrenalin had stopped and they were faced with starting again, in a city of rubble and a painful memory around every corner. too much to take.

hmm, it's not as bad as bosnia was during the war! don't get that excited.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Not very realistic. No qualms over here about eating horse meat or baby cows. Might be a bit reluctant to eat poultry but that's got nothing to do with sentimentality.

they don't actually that much horse meat anymore. the boucheries chevalines are slowly going.

 

[kyser_soze]

as lea said, your satire wasn't really realistic. try to improve a bit, next time.

Since when did satire have to be realistic?

 

[TeeJay]

What do you think it's about TeeJay?

People feeling that they are being excluded from work and suffering from racism and police harassment and violence, brought to a head by this recent case and made worse by Sarkozy's public comments.

Not anti-capitalism.

 

[TeeJay]

Sarkozy's going to have to go. Funny, because I'm sure Chirac would love to get rid off him but he's unlikely to resign and Chirac can't sack him as it'd make him look like he's giving in. God knows what's going to happen.

Ironically, leaving aside Sarkozy's stupid comments, it may well be that the alternatives to him are even worse:

"With every night of violent rioting that scars France's rundown suburbs, more and more French say their distinctive model of integration, based on the revolutionary ideal of equality for all, has failed.

But President Jacques Chirac and his conservative allies are unlikely to join the critics, as that would mean accepting the approach France considers superior is no better than integration policies abroad.

Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy is the only top politician saying France's "republican model" falls short and that the U.S. or British "melting pot" approach could help break the cycle of minority exclusion, unemployment and revolt.

This desire to change the system lies at the heart of his rivalry with Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, who defends the supposedly colour-blind French model against the racial quotas and help for Muslim groups that Sarkozy advocates."

(my bold)

...

"What catches many French leaders in a bind is their belief that the alternative to their strong state intervening to ensure colour-blind equality is the cut-throat capitalism and ethnic segregation they say prevails in English-speaking countries.

When Sarkozy says the best social system is the one that produces jobs and that the French model is not doing that, his comments are met not with approval but retorts that the French model is fine and needs only to be better applied."​

source: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L07472177.htm

If this article is correct then it would be deeply ironic if Sarkozy is pushed out by these riots!

 

[guinnessdrinker]

sarkozy is said, indeed, to advocate some form of positive discrimination.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I don't see any argument, over in Brittany I have a large old English/French dictionary I purchased at a Vide Grenier, (rummage sale) which stated racaille means rabble. (The word was in used in French newspapers whilst I was there when the riots kicked off) I also have several new and brand new English/French dictionaries here in Britain and they call translate racaille as rabble.
Scum is rebut as in the scum of the Earth= Le rebut de genre humain.

Words can have more than one meaning...Language evolves and takes on new meaning.... could that be the case here?

 

[Treacle Toes]

who said that they were down to "unsatisfied council tenants"

Your post that provoked this response said 'the estates ain't that bad blah blah blah'.....as if they should be happy with them...ffs do you live there? how do you know how bad it is to live there?.....Any experience yourself of living on these kinds of estates and the crap that comes along with that?

 

[where to]

hmm, it's not as bad as bosnia was during the war! don't get that excited.

i don't know if yr being serious, but i was just expanding on the excitement of living during such crazy times. i'm sure the sarajevans wouldn't have been like, shit that was exciting huh, but the adrenalin they had, well, you say they would have been excited. in other words, i was trying to make a point about the paradox of excitement. or something

 

[where to]

People feeling that they are being excluded from work and suffering from racism and police harassment and violence, brought to a head by this recent case and made worse by Sarkozy's public comments.

Not anti-capitalism.

yup i'd go with that analysis. with a sprinkling of sceptisism over the motives of some, but as a generalism, yeah sounds right. its not anti-capitalism; hell some of them have been saying they want access to jobs in business

 

[tobyjug]

Words can have more than one meaning...Language evolves and takes on new meaning.... could that be the case here?

In that case I find the fact a 1948 dictionary gives the same meaning for the word as a brand spanking new 2005 one somewhat strange.

 

[888]

They want jobs? How reactionary of them! Of course it's not ideologically anti-capitalist, but it's clearly a reaction against shit living conditions and the state.

 

[vimto]

The kids are rioting because they've been provoked into it by Sarkosy's paramilitary police operations in some of the most deprived suburbs of Paris. The French political establishment are taking a rightward turn and utilizing anti-immigrant hysteria in the process.

Agreed bf

 

[where to]

RACAILLE

in the french larousse dictionary, i have it in front of me, frances most respected dictionary (i think), this word is described as:

population meprisable, rebut de la societe.

which translates (according to google translator) as:

population meprisable, scum of society

my old man translated rebut de la societe as rejects of society.

one way or the other. this is fucking strong language. its not the language of a statesman. its not the language one would use speak of ones own people. its not fucking on frankly.

 

[Balbi]

There's just been a french commentator on 5Live who closed his peice with;

"These people want to be accepted, they have proved their Frenchness by going out in the street and fighting the police. In France if there is a political problem, you go and fight the police. That is what these people have done!"

 

[Christian Man]

I think the French state should be handed over to the leaders of this uprising.

 

[where to]

the guy is spot on imo.

the values of the republic are being betrayed by the situation these youths live with. a nation that celebrates the storming of the bastille legitimises acts of violence taken in defence of these ideals, those 'of liberte, equalite et fraternite'.

it is sarkozy who is betraying the republic, its sarkozy who is 'anti-french'.

what a fucking brilliant country.

 

[Christian Man]

Does anyone agree?